The e-mails I get...

[dagrimreefah]

We killed hundreds of there people and ruined there biggest trade. please explain how thats justified or should allow us to mine coltan in iraq for US?
-to fund the forces-

I don't disagree with you there. But again, that just supports my argument. Its not simply white people who exploit others. Its the State.

[burgingham]

The state of poverty and opression large parts of the world live in was caused by a very small minority of white males.

Yes, that small group being called The State. You know, the entity you worship. When a small group of white males exploited, it is because they were part of the state (mainly the British Empire, the biggest exploiters in history.)

Slavery, colonialism, now capitalism as the next logical step. For us to live how we live others have to suffer. Otherwise we couldn't afford our lifestyle, I promise you that. Not even the more poor among us. The simple fact that we are sitting in a warm room by a computer surfing the internet right now shows we are among the priviledged few.

No. We can all live comfortably. It is BECAUSE of capitalism that EVERYONE can enjoy a higher standard of living, not just a priviledged few. Read about Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand". The scenario you just laid out is a result of collectivism and the ideologies that are centered around it, namely the ideologies you believe in. Like wealth redistribution. Let's not turn this into an economics debate. :p

I did not say every single. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth that make me look bad? Is that all you got? Propaganda is worth more than a thousand good arguments I guess.

Much like the propaganda you spew about libertarianism being the left-over mentality of slave owners. Hypocrite

1) You mean companies controlling the state, yeah? Thus capitalism being the root of all evil as I pointed out before.

I never really got libertarians there. They want to get rid of the state and replace it with companies. At the same time the state they hate so much is the very product of companies they now want to put in charge already. An independent state controlled by the people will always be the most fair form of government. The dictatorship of some company owners is certainly not better as libertarians seem to think. That somewhat reinforces the slave owner opinion I had, since the leaders of libertarianism are just that: Modern slave owners aka the CEOs of the big companies.

2) You* are living comfortably because others slave away for your pleasure in 3rd world countries. http://slaveryfootprint.org/#where_do_you_live **

*and by you we both of course mean what? That is right, a small minority of white people. We are the privileged few. I don't think you rwalize that a few hundred million US citizens do not count as a majority. There are billions slaving away for the T-Shirt you wear and the meat you eat.

** This is a somewhat striking example. But I cannot really link any scientific literature here right now.

[parisparisparis]

. Its not simply white people who exploit others. Its the State.

Isn't 'Life' based around 'exploiting' resources ?

[dagrimreefah]

1) You mean companies controlling the state, yeah? Thus capitalism being the root of all evil as I pointed out before.

Nope. What you speak of is called "Crony Capitalism", or facism. There is a stark difference. Also, that's another argument against the State.

2) You* are living comfortably because others slave away for your pleasure in 3rd world countries. http://slaveryfootprint.org/#where_do_you_live

Again, a result of State intervention.
Please learn the definition of the word "slave". They do not "slave away". No one is forcing these people to work. No one is holding a gun to their head. They do so voluntarily. The reason why other people across the ocean have to make my widgets for next to nothing is because labor in these developed countries is so goddamned non-competitive. You can blame that on State intervention that you love so much, like minimum wage laws, work condition regulations, unions, etc.

[dagrimreefah]

. Its not simply white people who exploit others. Its the State.

Isn't 'Life' based around 'exploiting' resources ?

No, its based around using resources to produce things that are more valuable than the resources you started out with. The only incentive for people to do that is profit, i.e. capitalism.

The Easter Islanders exploited their resources. They used up all of the trees on their island to produce some useless shitty statues for Idol worship. They ruined their economy in the process.

[Tonkyhonk]

And you 2 wonder why you were dropped by Paradox. I doubt it had anything to do about not allowing a 3rd dev, or the pace of the game development.
*snip*

Thank you for this btw. I got some serious thinking to do.

oh burg, thanks for quoting that, that reminded me to say that Claeyt doesnt seem to know that paradox staff were bigger racists with typical double standards, yet looks like putting all blames on devs.

There is no such thing as natural. Everything is socialized and can thus be socialized differently.

could someone please convince chinese, nkorean, syrian etc governments with some pro socialization skill that you think exists?

[burgingham]

1) You mean companies controlling the state, yeah? Thus capitalism being the root of all evil as I pointed out before.

Nope. What you speak of is called "Crony Capitalism", or facism. There is a stark difference. Also, that's another argument against the State.

2) You* are living comfortably because others slave away for your pleasure in 3rd world countries. http://slaveryfootprint.org/#where_do_you_live

Again, a result of State intervention.
Please learn the definition of the word "slave". They do not "slave away". No one is forcing these people to work. No one is holding a gun to their head. They do so voluntarily. The reason why other people across the ocean have to make my widgets for next to nothing is because labor in these developed countries is so goddamned non-competitive. You can blame that on State intervention that you love so much, like minimum wage laws, work condition regulations, unions, etc.

You can call it a problem of the state all you want. It is the companies forcing what they want onto the governments with illegitimate means.

Same goes for the slave workers. You really believe they have an actual choice?

Capitalists have become smarter over the decades. They force people to do what they want indirectly now. There are much better weapons than guns. Those weapons are also harder to spot. They are called hunger and poverty and lack of education.

They do the same to us btw. Capitalism has made us more equal in a negative sense of the word than any communist could have ever dreamt of. We are left with no choices anymore. Part of the mindless cubicle army a small group uses to their means. Dressed the same, living the same, eating the same, reading, listening, seeing the same, believing the same. Little Boxes

@Tonky: No you cannot. That is the very nature of education. You cannot just reverse it anymore. Once the damage is done we have a problem. That does not mean one should not fight for a step by step change of the way people think so that maybe future generations in 100 or 200 years do not have to suffer from racial or fascist or megalomaniac delusions.

[parisparisparis]

. Its not simply white people who exploit others. Its the State.

Isn't 'Life' based around 'exploiting' resources ?

No, its based around using resources to produce things that are more valuable than the resources you started out with. The only incentive for people to do that is profit, i.e. capitalism.

The Easter Islanders exploited their resources. They used up all of the trees on their island to produce some useless shitty statues for Idol worship. They ruined their economy in the process.

lets not talk only about humans or economy.

i see the term exploiting as - 'make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)'. now i don't see words such as good or bad as meaningful so an exploitation is basically a selfish (not good or bad) act to get full benefits from a resource. So in these terms ALL life is just exploiting each other selfish reasons (not good or bad). Humans are just a a bit more advanced in exploiting compared to other life forms.

I would also say that the only reason for exploitation is to survive and reproduce. Surviving and reproducing is the ONLY thing that is important to a living organism. Everything else humans do that is outside exploitation is just a bit of the real advancement. Humans show some potential in being something more than just 'life'. Will they really evolve im not sure.

[Tonkyhonk]

one thing i know for sure is that an armchair theory doesnt work as you want it to.

[dagrimreefah]

You can call it a problem of the state all you want. It is the companies forcing what they want onto the governments with illegitimate means.

Illigitimate means? HAHAHAHA, oh the poor state, its the victim of the evil businessman's "illigitimate means" XD. SPARE ME

Same goes for the slave workers. You really believe they have an actual choice?

Yes, because they do. Getting emotionally charged about it doesn't change the facts.

Capitalists have become smarter over the decades.

You mean businessmen? Quit trying to equate a greedy businessman with an entire economic school of thought. Its really disgusting.

They force people to do what they want indirectly now.

Yes by using the direct force of government. The State is all about direct force and violence.

There are much better weapons than guns. Those weapons are also harder to spot. They are called hunger and poverty and lack of education.

Yes businessmen are the cause for all of the ills in the world. I forgot People starving in Africa because of British, Chinese, and American (UN) exploitation, not to mention local politics, is all because of Wal-Mart and the rest of the 1 percenters.....

Again, you take some resources (lumber, rubber, etc), and as an entrepenuer, you must figure out a way to take those resources and make something more valuable than what you started with. You can then make a profit. That is capitalism. All the shit you talked about is the result of the State. Of course greedy businessmen are going to try to use the State to get the advantage over their competitors. But that is not the fault of capitalism. The problem is that the State is that big and powerful to begin with, that one would even look up to it for a gain of advantage.

I think its pathetic that you think the State can replace the profit seeking entrepenuer, who is responsible for innovation and who has been responsible for the higher standard of living you enjoy today. Without capitalism, there would be no entrepenuer.