Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[Amanda44]

Yes, pls Loftar - expand a little, where is the catch?

The catch is that it takes 10 blocks and trees only give 9

- sounds about right.

[Danno]

I'm so glad you guys are aiming to remake the game without the robotic gameplay/grinding. H&H is an amazing game by itself, but heavily weighed down by the tedious chores and the infinite quality system, which turns the game into a second fulltime job. The players will kick and scream at first, but I hope you do whatever you guys think is a good idea regardless. I always knew you guys had better intentions for the gameplay to make it play more like an actual game.

(15:41:51) <loftar> I think one of the problems related thereto is the fact that there's no real "end-game content" other than PvP.
(15:42:01) <loftar> And tbt I don't really know what to do about that.

Currently, this game doesn't even have PvP as end-game content, which is unfortunate. If anyone does PvP, it's usually an experienced player slaying a helpless newb or an offline criminal. End-game is mostly just quality wars with PvP mainly happening only on the last day of the world. Everyone always has so much fun during the apocalypse since they're not afraid to actually fight each other and die. In Hafen, please implement this to a degree. Obviously, we don't want complete chaos on a daily basis, but there should be more incentive to start wars and less severe penalties. No one wants to fight because they're unwilling to wager their 1-20 months of work. The square root formulas for quality and combat stats were great in theory, but the players have broken your system through hundreds of hours spent grinding. I know I'll be flamed for this, as I have been in the past, but we need fairly low/medium caps for the following reasons:
a) Players need to stop focusing so much on grinding and spend more time playing - shaping the world around them and conquering adversities.
b) Low tier players should not be expected to travel in packs of 5 to stand a chance against 1 high tier player.
c) Permadeath does not mix well with insane time investments.
d) PvP should be based on skill and wits, not stats. A high tier player winning by default is not gameplay, it's just cruel in a game with permadeath.

As others have mentioned in the past, the game definitely needs better village management options, including making other villages your allies/enemies with sub-options like allowing allied villages to use your village as their own. This combined with viable PvP for players joining late would give us some real end-game. PvP needs to be fought online, not against afk or offline opponents, but this will only happen if the players don't have to risk 50+ HOURS of work everytime they get in a fight.
I know 50 hours is "nothing" to a lot of people here (other than a setback of not being able to raise a crop by a few more quality points), but that is some serious time investment just to be given 1 shot at PvP. With 50 hours, a person can play through and beat a single player game published on a console and actually get some satisfaction out of the gameplay and story.

TLDR:
In the end, you have to use the players themselves as the end-game content. In a single player game, it's easy to have the climax of the story and a final boss for end-game, but for an infinite MMO, all of the game's challenges will be beaten eventually (see: bears are considered a laughable threat by experienced players). The players are the ultimate AI, and they program themselves in an unlimited variety of difficulties. What you need to do is harness the energy of the players and use it not for creating a q730 flax crop - the players must be used against each other. Pseudo-wars suck, we need more tangible competition.

[Xcom]

@Danno
Sounds like you just described DOTA. You could always install it and play that instead.

[Potjeh]

To be fair, DotA is infinitely more balanced than H&H.

[insanechef]

pvp is shit with permadeath and everyone knows it, but haven without pvp would suck because there would be no consequences for leaving scents

[GrapefruitV]

Get your hands off infinite quality and sweet hardcoreness already. Haven is for special people, we won't play mix of dota and salem before timers.

[Dolby3d]

pvp is shit with permadeath and everyone knows it, but haven without pvp would suck because there would be no consequences for leaving scents

losing all of your stuff would be pretty bad enough. If let' say you keep all your skills it would be much easier to rebuild everything and would seem much more balanced to me.

[Oddity]

a) Players need to stop focusing so much on grinding and spend more time playing - shaping the world around them and conquering adversities.

We need more adversities to conquer.

[Massa]

Wow loftar, a bigger world is the exact OPPOSITE thing haven needs

Also what ever happened to you "never monetizing HnH"?

No, we need quite a bigger world I would argue.

[TeckXKnight]

Worlds can be too large and in doing so restrict contact between players. More space certainly does mean that you won't run into others but it also means that you won't run into others. As much as the game has become about hiding from everyone for your safety, things like trade, communication, friendship, and growth can't happen behind the safety of an empty supergrid. In my opinion you can't solve this issue with any kind of static world size in a game like this. We see an ebb and flow of players entering and exiting and the world needs to represent that to some degree. I think the addition and loss of supergrids as worlds gain and lose active players would be the best solution, even if it meant that giant earthquakes could come and consume everything you've built when your supergrid was about to be swallowed.

losing all of your stuff would be pretty bad enough. If let' say you keep all your skills it would be much easier to rebuild everything and would seem much more balanced to me.

While at face value I entirely disagree with you, as cushioning the blow to the degree that you've suggested is rather inviting to abuse, I agree with the sentiment that losing everything is a major drag. Emotionally it's wrenching on players when you lose everything you were invested in, home and character, and because of this the great bulk of those who make it to the end game are those who have emotionally distanced themselves from loss. I believe this creates a player base who are less invested in the majesty and growth of the world and more invested in killing more people for the fuck of it. If this is not the experience that the game is trying to create, it is a breed of player it needs to stop growing. Lessen the blow of absolute loss in some way, especially if it is in a way that just makes us feel like we didn't get fucked. I think aiming for a solution in this area will create a better endgame experience.