H&H LP Economics - After the Death of Bourgeoisie

[Tonkyhonk]

The old LP system was based on labor. If you performed a certain task, you'd receive a certain amount of LP. The reward's amount was hardcoded into the game and was nontransferable. Basically, the workers owned the means of LP production and there was no LP-based currency. This would appear to be analogous to the labor theory of value. This is the (*cough* discredited *cough*) theory that forms the operating framework for Marxists and several other varieties of collectivist.

The new LP system is based on capital. You can only gain LP if you possess curiosities (capital goods). And you can trade curiosities. Their prices are based (roughly) on supply and demand. This is analogous to the marginal theory of value. I would regard this as a more capitalist system.

oh wow.
guess i have been eating too many fishy, the scales fell from my eyes after reading this!
well yeah, you sound more accurate there.
i have to ponder a lot more to explain why many players are feeling the boredom of this system now.
not sure if i can refute you, but gimme some time to think xD

[Jackard]

The new LP system is based on capital. You can only gain LP if you possess curiosities (capital goods). And you can trade curiosities. Their prices are based (roughly) on supply and demand. This is analogous to the marginal theory of value. I would regard this as a more capitalist system.

And it might be, were barter stands to actually function as they should.

[Tonkyhonk]

Jackard,
sorry that i cannot comment much on that, i have never used barter stands before... only vending stands.
but, probably the fact that we avoided it might be due to its unfunctionality and improvements are needed.



--a note to self--
previous LP system = no limits
max LP gain is when you play 24/7 with no breaks which is only achievable by the use of bots.
not what majority of players do, so safe to say there is almost no limits in gaining LP?
LP=labour=play, LP=/=currency

current LP system = has certain limit, rather easy to reach
max LP gain is somewhat easily achieved, though it depends on each charactors stats and environment.
(also how often you can log in to reload the mentory items.)
maybe the majority does not attain the max point, but most know there are many who do.
here is hoping no RMT arise...
-----

[DatOneGuy]

current LP system = has certain limit, rather easy to reach
max LP gain is somewhat easily achieved, though it depends on each charactors stats and environment.
(also how often you can log in to reload the mentory items.)
maybe the majority does not attain the max point, but most know there are many who do.
here is hoping no RMT arise...[/size]
-----

I wouldn't call that the actual limit or easy to reach.

Let's look at the top curiosities in order shall we:
Name - Size - Weight
River Pearl - 1 - 15
Peculiar Flotsam - 1 - 9
Ruby Dragonfly - 1 - 4
Ant Empress - 1 - 6
Edelweiß - 1 - 8
Chiming Bluebell - 1 - 7
Prince Charming - 2 - 15
Ant Queen - 1 - 3
Ant Soldiers - 1 - 2
Tiny Abacus - 1 - 14
Porcelain Doll - 1 - 10
Rabid Jackalope - 4 - 7
100 Total Mental Weight
Shortest Time: 40 Minutes.
*Glimmermoss is above Jackalope ; BUT the average of adding in 2 other things below Jackalope would bring it under the ability of Jackalope. We're going for theoretical max with current known numbers.

This list is the `best` you could fit in your 4x4(16) Mentory Window for LP/Hour/Size. This is the theoretical `maximum` LP you could be gaining (multiplied by Pearl Necklace(+40%)+2x RoB(+15%) and Tea+20%) ; For the sake of this we'll assume you have q10 of all three)

Base LP/Hour - 10,807.53 (We'll round this to 10,800)
Not sure how the Pearl Necklace properly multiplies if it does with your natural LA (The way the sliders multiply ; I'll assume these simply add and ignore that) you'll have a 450% LA with those all on.


Actual LP/Hour - 10,800 * 4.5 = 48,600

--
Now that we've examined the theoretical max let's get something more doable for what you'd keep on.
Top `Doable` (Constantly on) LP/Hour/Size:
Peculiar Flotsam
Ant Empress
Edelweiss
Chiming Bluebell
Ant Queen
Ant Soldiers
Tiny Abacus
Porcelain Doll
Glimmermoss
Bloated Bolete
Emerald Dragonfly
Royal Toadstool
Bark Boat
Cone Cow
Frog's Crown
Stalagoom
87 Total Mental Weight
Shortest Time: 20 Minutes
Base LP/Hour : 4,956

Actual LP/Hour(Pearl, Tea) : 20,815
Actual LP/Hour(Pearl, RoB, Tea) : 22,302


You can work harder to get towards that theoretical maximum that is actually almost twice as good as the `doable` maximum.
Every time you get a River Pearl to study(Lolwut), Ruby Dragonfly, Shocked Frog, or Rabid Jackalope you are coming much closer to this theoretical maximum, and moving faster than the other guys. If one could have some sort of way to ensure keeping these `best` on (such as 24/7 searching places in rotation whether manual or by bot), they would be ahead of you, by quite a bit.

[Tonkyhonk]

I wouldn't call that the actual limit or easy to reach.
calculations...

awww >.< as i noted, it was just a reminder to myself. should have made them tiny instead of small xD
(i know, i know, i should put my memo somewhere else)

current LP system = has certain limit, rather easy to reach

by "certain" i meant, a realistic actual value.
but yeah, youre right, you can try harder to make your max closer to a theoretical one. and thinking about how often majority log in to the game, getting actual max is not even so easy to reach, i guess.
oh and thanks for your calculations!

duh, im still trying lol

[pyrale]

Imo it's hard to talk about capitalism when there is no real sense of investment. If there were "village councils" or "village owners" deciding how to invest the curios into players to maximize village's efficiency, then, maybe, you could talk about capitalism. However, I doubt you'll see much villages working like that. If usually the most hardcore players get good stuff/curios first (which was probably already the case for food/equipment last world), I doubt you will see this rationalized anywhere.

On my side, I don't really grind curios massively. I'm satisfied with my seer's tea leaves production for my alts, also occasionally getting better curios through foraging or trading. I don't really look for massive LP gains because what I get is already enough to not soft cap my quality.
I'm still a bit annoyed to be forced to take care of recharging curios to gain LPs, but it isn't as intrusive as I thought it would be.

By the way, for those who think you can't get good curios through crafting :
Q20 bluebell = Q110 straw doll.
Q40 bluebell = Q220 straw doll.

And there are a couple other crafted curios involving farming components. In my opinion, if foraging as a huge weight in the early world stages, the villages that will develop the fastest will probably be the ones that can afford to pump out massive amounts of high-Q crafted curios, simply because you can't find 20 decent quality bluebells and 120 flotsams for your 20-man village every day whereas you can pump out thousands of those.

[Tonkyhonk]

Imo it's hard to talk about capitalism when there is no real sense of investment. If there were "village councils" or "village owners" deciding how to invest the curios into players to maximize village's efficiency, then, maybe, you could talk about capitalism. However, I doubt you'll see much villages working like that. If usually the most hardcore players get good stuff/curios first (which was probably already the case for food/equipment last world), I doubt you will see this rationalized anywhere.

there are, maybe only a few, but such villages or groups of villages that are trying to work together efficiently.
*edit*
oh yes, and i might be wrong using the word "capitalism", but that is the first thing came to my mind

On my side, I don't really grind curios massively. I'm satisfied with my seer's tea leaves production for my alts, also occasionally getting better curios through foraging or trading. I don't really look for massive LP gains because what I get is already enough to not soft cap my quality.
I'm still a bit annoyed to be forced to take care of recharging curios to gain LPs, but it isn't as intrusive as I thought it would be.

thanks for your input.

as for crafting curio's efficiency, it has been already mentioned by ysbryd somewhere on previous pages.
although the efficiency rate *can* be questioned depending on how long this world lasts.
if it lasts long enough, then some players might start crying, or village management can strive again. (but as youre well aware, the current system is probably the hardest when you start out and requires patience.)
from what loftar said on IRC yesterday though, it seems like the next reset wont be happening any time soon, so q200+ straw dolls may start appearing sometime.

i know of a village that started out with 20+ people at the beginning of this world, which once dropped down to 2 at one time after a week or so. (not AD, nor bot using village) some friends of mine have quit after a while too.
and im trying to find a good explanation to such motivation crisis of players.
i myself like this current system, but losing many enthusiastic friendly players is a bit sad.

[pyrale]

and im trying to find a good explanation to such motivation crisis of players.
i myself like this current system, but losing many enthusiastic friendly players is a bit sad.

I started in a village this world, but it annoyed me as hell. I like doing a bit of everything, conducting projects, etc. I guess my heartling was born to be a hermit.

The problem I see with this world is that any LP-oriented village needs massive amounts of forageables early in the world (blubs, curios) and that not everyone likes to spend 80% of his time grinding anthills and looking for blueberries, and later in this world, roaming mountains and swamps for curios.
I guess it could help to reduce the gap between the best-and-rarest curios and the ones that are easier to find.
It would also be cool to make the basic effectiveness of crafted curios a bit higher, while at the same time adding items whose quality can't be improved too much to their recipes (why not forageables ?), so that you can't pimp their quality to insanity.

In previous world, people started by foraging alot, then this part of their activity gradually lowered more and more to the point that they only foraged for mussels, while farming and mining activities became more and more important (hunting remaining stable).
With this world, I have the feeling that foraging still remains one (if not the) major activity of a village, which, I think, may annoy some players which don't really like it.

[Markoff_Chaney]

Imo it's hard to talk about capitalism when there is no real sense of investment.

How do you figure that? I'm constantly making investment decisions when I play this game. Should I study my curios to gain LP or should I trade them to a nearby village in exchange for supplies (which I can use to make even better curios)? The cost of each option is measured in terms of the lost opportunity to pursue the other options.

So clearly we make investment decisions on an individual level. If we don't make decisions on a village level then that probably has more to do with problems with coordination and transaction costs than anything.

[cloakblade]

I like floating caps. I hate hard caps.

There are some effective hard caps or were.
In essence from what I get so far in W5 from playing:
UA - Floating cap based on other players = Uncapped
MC - Floating cap based on other players = Uncapped
Marksmanship - Floating cap based on highest q wood = Gradually increasing cap, essentially hardcaps when trees plateau, generally this happens often around 160+, good luck ever pushing trees to 190+. = Floating->Hard Cap
Exploration - Cap at around 10k for foraging, floating on other players = Hard Cap ; There's a work around for stealth
Stealth - No cap = Uncapped
Sewing - Cap based on farming/other stuff;floating = Gradually increasing cap
Smithing - Based on highest metal and clay, once highest clay is found hard = Hard cap
Carpentry - Based on highest wood, eventually plateaus =Floating->Hard Cap (You'll pretty much never get past q200 trees until your cows break q200 bones and your survival is past it, or in the case of troll bones maybe a bit higher like 300, the floating point should pretty much reach an asymptote around bone q but then pass it with luck)
Cooking - Based on farming = Gradually Increasing
Farming - Keeps going albeit slower than w3 = Gradually increasing
Survival - Capped with bones mostly, never going to need past a certain point (Troll bones I assume) =Hard Cap

A note directly at your points: Your metal quality is effected by your tree quality which although slow to progress (REALLY SLOW AFTER A POINT) is still "un-capped" so smithing is a floating hardcap based on materials. And survival hits a 200 cap before trolls (after which point theories have gone as high as to say 1k is needed). Carpentry is also not "hardcapped" but rather a slow increase because you can technically grind trees infinitely.

The supposed cap to combat (at least the one I like) is where what you wear or wield effects your combat cap. So the higher quality steel you have the more MC you can have because of the weapon and the more UA you can have because of the armor (or something like that) the caps would only stop people from completely getting crazy numbers like in the 400s or 500s. The 300s where high end combat often sits will still exist and is still a hard goal for people to reach to.