Other games you play or have played.

[theTrav]

Randomness is fun, especially when it applies to both sides.

While our DM doesn't pull punches, either in favor of, or against the favor of our party, that's not to say that there is any extra inherent randomness in the system.

Popping heads due to multiple bad rolls is something I feel firmly opposed to, as it's my opinion that you want your players to be focussed on paying attention and making legitimate risk vs reward decisions rather than just expecting that once every 8 sessions or so they're going to lose their PC just because of pure dumb bad luck.

[Winterbrass]

Randomness is fun, especially when it applies to both sides.

While our DM doesn't pull punches, either in favor of, or against the favor of our party, that's not to say that there is any extra inherent randomness in the system.

Popping heads due to multiple bad rolls is something I feel firmly opposed to, as it's my opinion that you want your players to be focussed on paying attention and making legitimate risk vs reward decisions rather than just expecting that once every 8 sessions or so they're going to lose their PC just because of pure dumb bad luck.

That's the thing, though - players factor in the 'my head might asplode' into their decisions, and do things more heroically, rather than relying solely on magic. Even mages need some armor and weapons in this game. 'My mage just crushed an orc's head with a warhammer' is a little more badass than 'my mage just electrocuted an orc with a bolt of lightning'.

[Jackard]

'My mage just crushed an orc's head with a warhammer' is a little more badass than 'my mage just electrocuted an orc with a bolt of lightning'.

huh?

[theTrav]

That's the thing, though - players factor in the 'my head might asplode' into their decisions, and do things more heroically, rather than relying solely on magic.

I didn't intend to limit the preference to mages and magic... I think in general having things that carry a high risk of "random death through no fault of your own" is a bad idea.

Even mages need some armor and weapons in this game.

Ok, more reflection on this sentence makes me think that we're on completely different pages. You're playing something where magic is not supposed to be used as a default, and I'd expect that when you roll incredibly poorly using your weapon attacks (which are supposed to be the default mode of combat) you don't make them auto die, or lose their weapons or anything like that.

'My mage just crushed an orc's head with a warhammer' is a little more badass than 'my mage just electrocuted an orc with a bolt of lightning'.

That's an entirely subjective statement that doesn't have a lot to do with anything above.

[Winterbrass]

Even mages need some armor and weapons in this game.

Ok, more reflection on this sentence makes me think that we're on completely different pages. You're playing something where magic is not supposed to be used as a default, and I'd expect that when you roll incredibly poorly using your weapon attacks (which are supposed to be the default mode of combat) you don't make them auto die, or lose their weapons or anything like that.

No, you're right. It takes a lot to seriously screw a person up in combat. "It looks like he's going to slash you twice, once in the face, and once in your weapon arm." "Well, I'm going to attempt to parry his weapon the first time, and if he recovers, I'll block the second." Contested weapon rolls, essentially. A failed roll doesn't even necessarily mean death, unless the enemy rolls well and you roll poorly. OTOH, death from bleeding out is still an option, but it can take a while, depending on the severity and location of the strike. Fumbling is so rare that I don't think I've ever seen it happen in the four years that I've played.

As for 'oh noes, you die' situations, last night our sci-fi characters were attacked in a spaceport. A cargo container was dropped on the party, and we needed to make perception rolls *and* dodge rolls or die. Fail the perception and you didn't get to make the dodge. Fail the dodge, and you die. You're suggesting that a situation like that is out of the question?

[Jackard]

most save or die rolls are a sign of poor DMing. one assumes characters have a little more meaning than a Final Destination scene of lol random death REALISM!! i kill players for breakfast

just sayin

[Chakravanti]

most save or die rolls are a sign of poor DMing. one assumes characters have a little more meaning than a Final Destination scene of lol random death REALISM!! i kill players for breakfast

just sayin

Yup, it's called Deus Ex Machina. A sign of Good Storytelling is if you can prevent it from sounding contrived.

Even mages need some armor and weapons in this game.

Ok, more reflection on this sentence makes me think that we're on completely different pages. You're playing something where magic is not supposed to be used as a default, and I'd expect that when you roll incredibly poorly using your weapon attacks (which are supposed to be the default mode of combat) you don't make them auto die, or lose their weapons or anything like that.

IIRC D&D has multiclass mechanics and sorcs are by nature a hybrid anyway. That said, this is one of the reason I love mage. Every character is Mage (unless they're playing a sleeper for some reason such as pre-Awakening scenarios). Regardless of where you fit into the schema of rogue, fighter, healer, etc. everyone uses magic to augment their role in the group dynamic.

As for 'oh noes, you die' situations, last night our sci-fi characters were attacked in a spaceport. A cargo container was dropped on the party, and we needed to make perception rolls *and* dodge rolls or die. Fail the perception and you didn't get to make the dodge. Fail the dodge, and you die. You're suggesting that a situation like that is out of the question?

I would never make such situations black and white. It's kind of like an M16. THe purpose of an M16 is not to kill enemies. it's to injure them. If you kill a person on a battlefield you remove one opponent. if you injure them you remove two or three. THe cargo container could just as easily trap the guy and force-delay the other characters to do some crazy shit to save him like hijacking a crane, or other cargo-bay tools and then carry him out injured.

THe threat of death is an excellent game mechanics but it is poor DMing to use it directly like that. Everything that's a threat of death can have some middle ground and Deus Ex Machina cannot be overused. Scenarios like this are perfect for making the team work together to save themselves.

Death is a lot like an arch villain. Your characters should hear about it, talk about it, get close to it but never really face it directly until very late in the game. It should long winded stupid speeches that allow the characters to skate by just in the nick of time.

[Jackard]

Deus Ex Machina. ;) A sign of Good Storytelling

?? ?

?

[Winterbrass]

Well, what can I say - my DM has been DMing since the early seventies, and has clearly found a dozen people in the same city who hate comic-book enemies who monologue and end up inconveniently ignoring the PCs until too late, and who love party wipes just as much as 'winning' the campaign. We prefer our enemies to actually be malicious and not pull punches. It means that when we actually end up defeating the Big Bad, who has killed half of our friends and allies by that point, that it actually means something - we're not only defending a section of the world, we're also avenging the fallen.

As for the 'dropped a box on them' in the spaceport - it wasn't contrived. We were there to see the dockmaster about criminal activity occurring in the area. There were seven of us, and we all had proscribed weapons. In order to not be intimidating, four of us stayed behind, and the three more charming people went to talk to the dockmaster. Long story not so long, the 'drop a box on them' was just a precursor to a melee with a group of thugs from one criminal organization who had been paid off to kill us by a different crime family through a neutral intermediary. An attempt to eliminate as many as possible to increase the odds of the melee succeeding. It didn't, but was very, very close. Only two players were left standing out of seven, although there were only two actual casualties - a broken arm (attempt to block a four-foot spanner with both arms), and a snapped wing/broken collarbone/damaged neck and skull (glancing blow from a thrown spanner while flying, and the subsequent impact with the ground).

City adventures where you can see death looming before you as more than just an abstract, ominous sense of foreboding are poor DMing. It needs to be sudden, springing out of the dark at you when you may not expect it, or it needs to be a trap that you get into by not paying attention to your surroundings. An "oh shit" moment, if you will, and it shouldn't happen every session, or every other session. It's a rare gift.

If you want to play a game where the PCs are special Mary-Sues/Gary-Stus and they're lolobviously different from everyday people, then call a spade a spade - you're not roleplaying heroic characters, you're roleplaying superheroes. Heroic characters are everyday people who do incredible things, survive unexpected death, and specifically don't have a cakewalk of it. If you can whine "But I only have one healing potion left" or "This sword is only +1" or "But I'm not going to level this session"? You're not heroic.

[Jackard]

heroism is, to me, a mage smashing his foes in the head with a hammer