The e-mails I get...

[RedKGB]

You are a very useful idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE38dLxapVo
You must've seen this video before

No, I did not, but I was a good video on how to use ones own views to get people todo things for you, and then to do away with them.

The word feed should have been in there but since I refuse to ever edit, it will for allways look stupid.

[Yolan]

Thing is natural science should be more self-observant and also should learn to incorporate other sciences into its own patterns. Then it can regain its aspiration to explain the world. We must never forget that everything we know is ultimately something we ourselves constructed through our ways to communicate it.

Excellent. This is exactly the problem with Dawkins (and even Hawking).

"So many people today — and even professional scientists — seem to me like someone who has seen thousands of trees but has never seen a forest. A knowledge of the historic and philosophical background gives that kind of independence from prejudices of his generation from which most scientists are suffering." Einstein said this a generation ago and today it sometimes seems that it is worse than ever.

[jorb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE38dLxapVo
You must've seen this video before

I have. Bezmenovs testimony is extremely powerful.

("Useful idiot" is -- by the by -- a term usually attributed originally to Lenin.)

[Potjeh]

Yeah, them famous phrases sure come in handy when you need to dismiss anyone who calls you out on bullshit theories like growing enough food to feed oneself without having any actual farmland.

[Amanda44]

I have never studied politics, philosophy, economics or any other 'ology', therefore I do not feel I have the intellectual prowess to hold my own in these types of debates, which is why I refrain from doing so.

I do, however have a degree of intellect, can understand other points of view and ensuing arguments and am quite capable of researching quotes and literature that arises and in the debates between Grim and Burgi since i've been here, I have done so.

* Originaly in this space was a whole wall of text - in the time it took me to decide 'if' and 'what' I wanted to say, you have all moved on and it's no longer applicable, which in all honesty is probably a good thing.

Instead, i'll just be content with saying:

@ Burgi -

And no I won't stop debating social matters. Never. They are far too important to be ignored.

Thank goodness for that at least.

[RedKGB]

Yeah, them famous phrases sure come in handy when you need to dismiss anyone who calls you out on bullshit theories like growing enough food to feed oneself without having any actual farmland.

And once again when proven wrong you refuse to accept it. When talking about "slave wages", and showen that yes you can do it, you refuse to accept. When someone that has growen up under the heel of "the man" can in fact do it, and provided testmoiny that is can be done, you refuse to accept. You hide behind third world slaves, third world wages, third world poperty ownership. I do not know where the phrase came from, but from whom ever said it was right, and you Potjeh fit it to a T.

[burgingham]

@Amanda: Don't mind the speed of the debate too much. I often hit "send" just to see half a dozen posts have been made too. What you have to say is still valid and still matters though.

The world would be a very boring place if only those who studied something have anything of interest to say...

[Potjeh]

Except you haven't shown a damn thing that's relevant.

[dagrimreefah]

Yeah, them famous phrases sure come in handy when you need to dismiss anyone who calls you out on bullshit theories like growing enough food to feed oneself without having any actual farmland.

If it weren't for the big mean evil capitalists, those proles wouldn't even have a wage to keep them fed, since a majority of them are subjectable to warlords or their own tyranical governments (no private property rights).

[BloodyGuestUsers]

The question that natural science often forgets to ask these days is "Who observes the observer?" and what conclusions could be drawn from that?

How about the all important question "Who observers the observer's observer?" and you know, about observer's observer's observer's observer?

Seriously though, that's particularly a question that should never be giving any bearing on the results because it fundamentally demolishes scientific-method and makes any "science" into nothing of value. The problem with it is that it tries to replace the actual findings and discoveries about the world around us with something a like universal sufferage where you can prove essentially anything as long as you can provide enough observers to back you up, and this is unrelated to whenever or not the statement in question are true.

If you dislike nature/nurture experiments results that's great - you can set up your own experiments that will, hopefully for you, produce different results, then you can confront original researchers to walk through both of your experiment and find which one was wrong (mind no woeful agenda is implied, simply a mistake), and that's gonna be that. Feeling something is right or wrong is a great reason to test it, but you cannot simply discard the results because you, essentially, don't like them. And you consider it as a prove enough to claim the nurture is everything, again can't stress that enough, simply because you dislike the results personally.

And the only reason i'm going so far of the thread topic is because i feel that this idea that as long as you feel like something it's stronger than the laws of the universe, central idea of society in 1984 as much as i dislike dragging this here, is the very reason for condemning jorb for having a different opinion.

As a parting gift to anyone who found it in them to read the entire rant i propose this norwegian documentary Hjernevask (Brainwash), with english subtitles, which presents interesting case of observing some scientific makings in progress, mostly on the topic of nature vs nurture.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=327138
(sorry for temliquid link, but dammit it has all parts grouped together)