Scripts abusing in w7

[Brás]

^ allowing only one connection per IP (however complicated that is) and not allowing proxies is the ultimate solution against botting abuse. It completely inhibits it, unless the botter wants to pay for VPNs, "elite" proxies that aren't publicly listed on the web, etc.

I can't even tell you how easy it is to spoof IP's. You don't need to pay for it, there are free clients and open VPN's that are more than capable of playing games like Haven (or other MMO's on).

That's why I said "not allowing proxies". Ideally you'd ban all free proxies and VPN ip ranges (if it's free the IP is public). IRL it's possible to ban a good chunk of them using blacklists, which are easily acquirable. You could also have some sort of policing, which I'm sure someone would be glad to do for free. Those also have lot's of downsides, sure, but it's what most games that I've played do and botting is reasonably controlled AFAIK. I'm not sure but I guess you could do whois queries on VPNs too.

Restricting it based on IP's or other stupid arbitrary identifiers will only restrict use of bots and other "tools" to those "in the know." (Yes, tools as simple as a program to run virtual machines, and free VPNs.) It would make them that much more powerful than the others.

Stupid arbitrary identifiers used by every major company in the world. And if one is able to download a bot one is able to download a VPN client or use a proxy. It's actually easier to do the last two.

Right now everyone is on an even playing field. Try to police it, and suddenly only some of the abusers get the benefit and can use their advantage to screw everyone else over, which would hurt even more than botting does now.

So... better let everyone do something that ruins the game instead of doing what you can to reduce the amount of people who do it? It's like saying "allow everyone to commit crime otherwise some will be abused by the ones that managed to bypass policing". It's sheer stupidity. If IP banning is far from ideal, fine, but something needs to be done.

...

Anyway I'm not saying that's actually feasible, considering this is F2P. Just saying that ideally it's the best "banning" (as opposed to "discouraging", which would be more practical) solution from what I see.

[Tonkyhonk]

oh man, this shit again

[Arcanist]

oh man, this shit again

I thought this useless thread died months ago.
Honestly I get more enjoyment out of writing scripts for haven than I've gotten from playing for a long time.

Bots aren't good for the game, but they are here to stay. learn to script and have fun.

[vatas]

oh man, this shit again

I thought this useless thread died months ago.
Honestly I get more enjoyment out of writing scripts for haven than I've gotten from playing for a long time.

Bots aren't good for the game, but they are here to stay. learn to script and have fun.

Can you link any good "writing java for dummies" -tutorials?

[GrapefruitV]

don't blame me, it was already up

[Robben_DuMarsch]

That's why I said "not allowing proxies". Ideally you'd ban all free proxies and VPN ip ranges (if it's free the IP is public). IRL it's possible to ban a good chunk of them using blacklists, which are easily acquirable. You could also have some sort of policing, which I'm sure someone would be glad to do for free. Those also have lot's of downsides, sure, but it's what most games that I've played do and botting is reasonably controlled AFAIK. I'm not sure but I guess you could do whois queries on VPNs too.

I lel'ed. This is an impossible policy. "Not allowing proxies". Believe it or not, but proxies are operated and run by people for the sole purpose of not being identified. I am willing to bet Jorb and Loftar have neither the resources, nor the care, to attempt to become world internet p0lice and do what no other company can do effectively (although you seem to insist otherwise by name dropping "blacklists" and "public ip bans").

Stupid arbitrary identifiers used by every major company in the world. And if one is able to download a bot one is able to download a VPN client or use a proxy. It's actually easier to do the last two.

Omgee a company "uses an ip." Makes your point valid.

Actually, to distill what you are really saying, lets go back to your previous example of "Steam":

"^ allowing only one connection per IP (however complicated that is) and not allowing proxies is the ultimate solution against botting abuse ... If it's good enough for Steam to do it..."

Steam doesn't restrict their accounts to one IP per connection. You can (and I have) play with as many accounts on a single IP simultaneously as you want.
I think you have confused restricting multiple simultaneous connections to a single account. ... .... Which Haven already does. For obvious reasons.

Unless you mean "whitelisting" IP's for each account, for account safety purposes. Then you are just dumb.

Well, you already are.

So... better let everyone do something that ruins the game instead of doing what you can to reduce the amount of people who do it? It's like saying "allow everyone to commit crime otherwise some will be abused by the ones that managed to bypass policing". It's sheer stupidity. If IP banning is far from ideal, fine, but something needs to be done.

...

Anyway I'm not saying that's actually feasible, considering this is F2P. Just saying that ideally it's the best "banning" (as opposed to "discouraging", which would be more practical) solution from what I see.

Yo man. Ever heard of this thing called "Prohibition"?
How about "The War on Drugs"?

Even if we assumed that Jorb and Loftar had all the tools, time, resources, care, that are necessary to "police multiple clients" (they don't, as it has already been previously established ad nauseam) in a semi-effective manner, it would still just fuck things even worse.

Trying to police something often just consolidates the power into the worst offenders, in turn making the entire situation worse. Botters *will* bot. People *will* have multiple clients. In a game with a community as small, niche, and competitive as Haven... you can bet your sweet ass that the people who can get that advantage will destroy parity for everyone else. This isn't a game where you can just ignore people that are one hundred and fifty times stronger than you. They kill you. Permanently.

Also to rattle off a few more weaknesses:
Cost of Enforcement (time that could otherwise be spent doing productive things... like development)
Collateral Enforcement (Restrictions on two people playing under the same ip/Bans that hit innocent parties)

What needs to be done isn't an implausible, ineffectual, and misguided policy. It's to bring more parity between botters and non-botters, and make the gameplay less conducive to botting in general, as any real Haven vet will tell you.

[Brás]

I lel'ed. This is an impossible policy. "Not allowing proxies". Believe it or not, but proxies are operated and run by people for the sole purpose of not being identified. I am willing to bet Jorb and Loftar have neither the resources, nor the care, to attempt to become world internet p0lice and do what no other company can do effectively (although you seem to insist otherwise by name dropping "blacklists" and "public ip bans").

As I said, IRL you're able to ban a good chunk of them, not all. A lot of websites do that effectively, believe it or not. I did mentioned I wasn't suggesting it was feasible since this is F2P.

Omgee a company "uses an ip." Makes your point valid.

Most major companies do it (effectively), which is a good point on showing it's not a "stupid thing".

Steam doesn't restrict their accounts to one IP per connection.

I know they don't, I never said they did. It's the other way around, one IP per account.

Then you are just dumb.
Well, you already are.

Repeatedly saying that and posting silly images doesn't make your argument any good, just makes you sound childish.

Yo man. Ever heard of this thing called "Prohibition"?
How about "The War on Drugs"?

Of course I did, and I'm not in favor of any of those. It has nothing to do with banning bots or banning crime. I'm sure you're not in favor of allowing unrighteous murder or theft because "not allowing it makes the killers have an advantage over the victims". Of course one shouldn't be allowed to do something that directly harms others, such as abusing bot, which ruins the economy and many other aspects of the game.

Also notice I made it clear it wouldn't - and shouldn't - end botting for good, just the abuse of it, such as alt armies.

What needs to be done isn't an implausible, ineffectual, and misguided policy. It's to bring more parity between botters and non-botters, and make the gameplay less conducive to botting in general, as any real Haven vet will tell you.

I know that, I mentioned it on the last phrase of my previous post. I do think discouraging is more effective in HnH case, I was just replying to someone who suggested IP bans.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

As I said, IRL you're able to ban a good chunk of them, not all. A lot of websites do that effectively, believe it or not. I did mentioned I wasn't suggesting it was feasible since this is F2P.

They don't. They never have. That is why your point is stupid.

Most major companies do it (effectively), which is a good point on showing it's not a "stupid thing".

They don't. They never have. That is why your point is stupid.
I invite you to provide the policy of any corporation or website that eradicates VPN/Proxy use.

In the alternative, I propose that no matter how sophisticated your defense is, you can't pierce the veil of properly (and easily) setup, publicly available, free, VPN's.
The world's intelligence agencies, including the yearly budgeted $52 billion US Intelligence Agencies can't even crack TOR, which works off of basic encryption and public VPNs.
Additionally, public VPN's are provided, freely, dynamically, and regularly, through sources such as the VPN gate network, eliminating the efficacy of "Blacklists."

I know they don't, I never said they did. It's the other way around, one IP per account.

In summation "Apples are red because oranges are orange."

Further evidence of your inaccuracy:
You are just plain wrong. Its not one IP per account, its one concurrent connection, on one unique platform.
You can't play on the same steam account simultaneously as other people simply because they share the same IP. A VPN would then enable multiple people play on the same steam account simultaneously. Or a fifty person family on the same connection. Or everyone you let on your wifi.


Good try, kiddo.

Repeatedly saying that and posting silly images doesn't make your argument any good, just makes you sound childish.

Of course it does. Children have way more fun than adults. Being childish doesn't degrade the validity of an argument, either.

Yo man. Ever heard of this thing called "Prohibition"?
How about "The War on Drugs"?

Of course I did, and I'm not in favor of any of those. It has nothing to do with banning bots or banning crime. I'm sure you're not in favor of allowing unrighteous murder or theft because "not allowing it makes the killers have an advantage over the victims". Of course one shouldn't be allowed to do something that directly harms others, such as abusing bot, which ruins the economy and many other aspects of the game.

Also notice I made it clear it wouldn't - and shouldn't - end botting for good, just the abuse of it, such as alt armies.

You don't see the analogy between the problems with enforcing bans on drugs and alcohol, and the problems with enforcing bans on things in general.

What needs to be done isn't an implausible, ineffectual, and misguided policy. It's to bring more parity between botters and non-botters, and make the gameplay less conducive to botting in general, as any real Haven vet will tell you.

I know that, I mentioned it on the last phrase of my previous post. I do think discouraging is more effective in HnH case, I was just replying to someone who suggested IP bans.

Grats bro. Your response should have been: "Won't work."

If it were as simple as you are suggesting, Jorb and Loftar would do it. They have made it absolutely clear they don't like botting, but simply can't combat it. They aren't just some dumbass developers sitting there with their thumbs in their asses waiting for some "sma3rt dued on forum" to give them a blacklist and ten lines of code.

[Brás]

What does "cracking Tor" has to do with anything? Blacklist are regularly (and usually automatically) updated btw. They are efficient, but not 100%, of course.

If it were as simple as you are suggesting, Jorb and Loftar would do it. They have made it absolutely clear they don't like botting, but simply can't combat it. They aren't just some dumbass developers sitting there with their thumbs in their asses waiting for some "sma3rt dued on forum" to give them a blacklist and ten lines of code.

(however complicated that is)

Anyway I'm not saying that's actually feasible, considering this is F2P. Just saying that ideally it's the best "banning" (as opposed to "discouraging", which would be more practical) solution from what I see.

I was just replying to someone who suggested IP bans.

Anyway, I can see you're mostly interested on posting images than actually discussing anything. Have "fun", I'm done here. http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/ori ... 25/db0.jpg

[DemoGraFX]

Well, the issue in all of the botter threads is not the combatting of the bots, but the unfair advantage that the bots give. One of the best ways to fight the REAL issue would be for a lot of it to actually be a normal, written-in part of the game.

Some core dynamics of the game could be changed. Using types like Eve online's LP system would inspire people to run multiple characters more, but it would also slow the progression rate of characters while also stretching the longevity of the worlds if done right. Down side is that people would log in even less than they do now, just to plug in a skill which completes in real-time no matter what.

Unless they can curb the grind, the bots will exist. Period. If you can grind any stat by repetitive actions it will be botted. Also, botting valuable materials to buy other valuable materials.

Side note but related: How can law enforcement stop people from speeding?
Can't be done. Not without HUGE investments. Imagine the world with speed bumps every 7 feet on any road anywhere. And the potholes every 7 feet don't count.
You know what people would do? They would modify their vehicles. They would pressure automakers to make vehicles that could withstand the speed bumps, claiming their reason is their vehicle is being damaged by the bumps but the real reason is that they don't want to be inconvenienced by them. Or they would just speed through them anyway and destroy their shit. Speed cameras have been installed. People just learn where they are and slow down for them. People know that cops are out there looking. They don't CARE. If J&L start policing botting they will basically need to ONLY allow their client, no matter what client they choose or create, but only theirs - and package that client with a remote access provision within the client, then actually spend their valuable time going through and randomly monitoring known or suspected botters. I don't think it SHOULD be worth that much to them to go through all of that shit, honestly.

Welcome to life.

I don't like that Haven is so botted...
But I also don't like that my wife complains all of the time and it takes TOO MUCH EFFORT AND MONEY to make it stop entirely. You do what you can, then accept the things that you either can't or would take an inhumane amount of effort to curb. Then, you deal with it and hope that others might understand.