burgingham wrote:In Germany as well as in your countries we have proven that a welfare state is working out pretty well while all the liberal countries are failing right now. The only stable European countries are ours (Germany and the Scandinavian states. Hope it isn't offensive to say "your countries") and the only fair ones supporting those in need ours have been for a long time anyway.
what would you say to this?
burgingham wrote:what would you say to this?
Germany is also by far the biggest spender in the EU. Foremost, but not exclusively in a monetary sense. Together with France the two are constantly working on a closer relationship between the members, or in times of crisis as right now to save the Union (one could obviously argue about how scuessful that is, but the general attempt is there).
The Union also led to a big economical uprise for most of its members after they joined. That they kinda gambled that away especially in cases like Greece or Ireland is not the Unions fault, but the fault of the countries relying on the Unions money too much and getting involved into questionable business.
Germany of course always was a country of export so it isn't exactly surprising that they earn a lot of money through their sales into the European region.
Best proof for the whole thing working out quite well is that it still exists and even the "loosers" at the moment never thought about withdrawing from the Union. So it obviously has a lot going for it when it stays that storng in times of crisis.
loftar wrote: bear fruit is not something I can predict,.
Beborn Beton wrote: "Don't Worry, They Won't Find My Body, I Want You To Know I Found Peace In Another World."
Tonkyhonk wrote:it is an interesting aspect.
a newspaper article i read actually implied that the success of germany in recent years is mainly from EU effects. maybe the writer is a bit biased (and this newspaper is known to be rather left-winged), but, what he said was that the capital in EU only moved from those failing countries into germany and a few others, germany purposely or not used the opportunity of new EU market which as a result made other EU countries suffer, and now smiles to them and says germany will gladly help those suffering countries with the capital it has gained/exploited from them.
what would you say to this?
burgingham wrote:First of all I do not despise you or anything. I am having a lot of fun discussing those matters. The presentation I gave about Rand was in a weekend long seminar about anarchism. Left wing as much as right wing. You would have enjoyed it a lot I am sure
I am curious though how a king is "lawful" according to you, a democratically elected government however is not. I am not talking about the actual flaws in current systems mind you. I am very well aware that democracy has be worn down to be a somewhat questionable lable these days. However I truly believe that is the fault of having capitalistic democracies. The part that needs to go away to make the systems shine again is the capitalism at least in its current form.
I am not a socialist, but I would consider myself a social-democrat and as Spock would have said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". We cannot deny that we are living in a mass society and your approach of "Do as though wilt" might work in Kasper Hausers cell, but not in states with tens of millions of people. In Germany as well as in your countries we have proven that a welfare state is working out pretty well while all the liberal countries are failing right now. The only stable European countries are ours (Germany and the Scandinavian states. Hope it isn't offensive to say "your countries") and the only fair ones supporting those in need ours have been for a long time anyway.
I see where a swedish person, grown up in a probably culturally, socially and probably even monetarily rich background is coming from in criticizing the system he has made all his experiences in and propagating a libertarian system to preserve his or her own wealth better,
but in my eyes everyone deserves to be saved and helped and put on the same level instead of having some canibalistic capitalistic system of everyone helping themselves. Because those systems do not prove equality or foster it as has been proven conclusively by people like Pierre Bourdieux. They create new inequalities instead.
Goethe wrote:Legislators and revolutionaries who promise equality and liberty at the same time are either psychopaths or mountebanks.
--Maxims and Reflections
It is quite funny in this context how many Americans seem to think too much governemental regulation led to the financial crisis when it clearly was not enough of the very same that did it.
History has already proven me right during the past few years and the only thing missing is the population rising up to demand back their right which is the state. The state belongs to all of us and there we have the root of all evil these days.
Zarathustra wrote:State is the name of the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly it lies; and this lie slips from its mouth: "I, the state, am the people."
It is a lie! It was creators who created peoples, and hung a faith and a love over them: thus they served life.
Destroyers are they who lay snares for the many, and call it state: they hang a sword and a hundred cravings over them.
Where there are still peoples, the state is not understood, and is hated as the evil eye, and as sin against laws and customs.
Joseph Sobran wrote:By their very nature, civil relations are not the primary relations in anyone's life, and most people have no idea of how even to begin resisting political demands that would absorb those relations into a radically different kind of social order. For civil man, politics is generally a distinctly part-time matter. For the political fanatic, politics is everything.
To then once again come back to Adorno (yes I love him very much) that is probably a result of dumbing down the masses by the use of mass cultural media (Adorno was originally a scientist for music and believes strongly in the mind numbing impact of pop music, but also movies etc. I would be interested to see him comment on the internet, would turn in his grave the good man). This dumbing down leads to all of us rather sitting in front of our monitors playing a game than to get our asses into the political apparatus and start to be part of the decision making proccess.
Alexis de Toqueville wrote:By and large the literature of a democracy will never exhibit the order, regularity, skill, and art characteristic of aristocratic literature; formal qualities will be neglected or actually despised. The style will often be strange, incorrect, overburdened, and loose, and almost always strong and bold. Writers will be more anxious to work quickly than to perfect details. Short works will be commoner than long books, wit than erudition, imagination than depth. There will be a rude and untutored vigor of thought with great variety and singular fecundity. Authors will strive to astonish more than to please, and to stir passions rather than to charm taste.
-- Democracy in America
This all has in no way the loss of individual freedom as a result and I love that freedom just as much as you do. Or do you feel repressed in the current system you live in?
Last question is if you believe in an anarcho-capitalistic system entirely without a state such as David Friedman (Miltons son) proposed it? I find the thought not entirely unintriguing, but in the end such a construct would be nothing but an arbitrary system of total power I fear.
The medieval Icelandic state had an unusual structure. At the national level, the Althing was both court and legislature; there was no king or other central executive power. Iceland was divided into numerous goðorð (plural same as singular), which were essentially clans or alliances run by chieftains called goðar (singular goði). The chieftains provided for defense and appointed judges to resolve disputes between goðorð members. The goðorð were not strictly geographical districts. Instead, membership in a goðorð was an individual's decision, and one could, at least theoretically, change goðorð at will. However, no group of lesser men could elect or declare someone a goði. The position was the property of the goði; and could be bought, sold, borrowed, and inherited.
jorb wrote:I believe -- together with Plato and Aristotle -- that the natural course of democracies is to evolve into dictatorships and tyrannies. The masses are quite simply not intelligent, learned, responsible and, frankly, interested enough to be entrusted with the running of a state
If the welfare state ever had a shot it was, indeed, in the Germanic countries, and it is telling that the least failed Communist state was precisely the DDR.
human liberty in the context of a society
The masses are quite simply not intelligent, learned, responsible and, frankly, interested enough to be entrusted with the running of a state.
Capitalism without freedom -- the defining characteristic of the social-democratic welfare state
Thus I tend to use the term "corpo-cleptocratic", or similar, as many International Megacorps are indeed little better than vampires. Goldman-Sachs comes to mind.
Do you dispute that Greece is bankrupt because it has been running a welfare state ponzi scheme for the past few decades?
You do understand that we outsource the graphics making for Salem to India because it is ridiculously expensive to hire people in this country, right?
Wouldn't some peace and quiet be a nice change of pace?
Of course. The state does nothing but get in my way in whatever I attempt to do and accomplish in life. 70% of the time I spend working is entirely wasted, and I do not recognize any such claims on my time, which is very dear to me, as I do not have a lot of it in this life, which is the only life I believe I shall ever live. Fundamentally, though, it isn't so much about the money -- something I respect, but fundamentally do not care too much about -- as about the moronic ways it's being spent. I have had to work pretty hard for every penny I've ever earned in my life, and seeing it spent on political pet peeves, or on promoting gender equality, or on bailing out fiscally irresponsible countries on the other side of the continent, or on some other completely arbitrary goal that my wise overlords have arbitrarily decided that they should force me to pay for is frankly rather nauseating considering I actually worked for that money whereas my wise overlords decidedly didn't.
I'd probably stop bitching if the tax rates were, say, half of what they are today, if politicians didn't get paid to rule and lord over me, and if there were at least some restrictions placed on the exercise of state force, such as we always used to have back when our King actually had power.
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