Philosophy, emotional investment and Questions that arise

[kobnach]

I predict that when the murderers establish themselves as the strongest faction, we'll enter an era of spawn camping and random newbie murdering.

This already happened and it wasn't Goons. Look at all the incidences of "spawn camping" and "random newbie murdering" and you'll see they were mostly perpetrated by oldbies, not goons.

It seems like some goons now meet the definition of oldbies - they can murder midlevel characters.

[Mikkanen]

The fact that heroic deeds, terrible losses and brutal murders actually matter, are remembered and are being repeated to others across nightly campfires (cough, forums..) is exactly what makes permadeath games, especially ones WITH emotional investment, great.

Cor died, and while I did not know the man, his acts for his village speak for themselves. Why not erect a statue in his honour, for example? If there was an easy way to avoid all the penalties of death with no drawbacks (I consider the 1/3 exp from full tradition quite the drawback), events like these would not matter one bit. A guy tries to drive off thieves, is shot to death, instantly respawns, is forgotten in 3 minutes flat. Sure, dying in H&H might make one blow his fuse for a while, but I'd consider a death like this to be a relatively 'good' and memorable one. If he'd actually beaten the goons it'd be the stuff of legends, but alas, this time that was not to be. Sure, there are rough edges (quite a lot of them) to smoothen out and the combat at the moment is what it is, but you get my point.

As DF taught us, losing is fun.

[Rift]

indeed, the very fact people go to all this effort to talk about who died, how they died, and how its important, is what makes me love permadeath.

[zdazzle]

I, personally, have been killed, lost a 50k LP character (I know probably not that much compared to a few others, but whatev) And now I have a much better character, in half the time! Its not that hard, and if you get emotionally involved in a video game, then well, you really should take a break. Its not meant to be serious after all!

[kobnach]

I, personally, have been killed, lost a 50k LP character (I know probably not that much compared to a few others, but whatev) And now I have a much better character, in half the time! Its not that hard, and if you get emotionally involved in a video game, then well, you really should take a break. Its not meant to be serious after all!

You died because you saw fit to roleplay a secret thief, and were killed when your misdeeds were found out. You must have known that this was a likely outcome - i.e. you brought it on yourself, knowingly.

As for the rest - I think we have a conflict of playing styles here in haven, and the lowest common denominator will win - throw away characters etc. I'd prefer otherwise - but anyone can be murdered at any time, and some of our players appear to like doing so. That mandates minimal attachment to the character - and thus a less fun game, IMO. It's Tuesday, I must be my original character's great great great great grandson - who never develops any personality or identity, outside of a set of stats and possessions, neither of which are really preservable.

p.s. I still miss my original, stolen homestead, and even though my second is objectively better, I have far less pride and attachment to it. What I built as a new player mattered to me. Now I've joined the majority - easy come, easy go, and to hell with role playing.

[Edit: It does not help that the game mechanics favour alts - practically mandate them, for those not part of a very active village, with people of all skills sets around at convenient times, and enough stats and online presence to defend one's valuables without alt vaults. Trading is and remains a joke - it's too hard to find someone on line who isn't already kin - hard enough even if they are. So just about everyone except the newest newbs has a a main character and either a nature or an industry alt (whatever their main is not) plus quite likely a collection of alts used for storage, for meeting untrustworthy players, for misbehaving unidentifiably, etc. etc. At that point, losing one or more is like losing a game piece at chess - annoying if it's the queen, but not more than that. But this detracts from most of the potential of the game.]

[zdazzle]

I, personally, have been killed, lost a 50k LP character (I know probably not that much compared to a few others, but whatev) And now I have a much better character, in half the time! Its not that hard, and if you get emotionally involved in a video game, then well, you really should take a break. Its not meant to be serious after all!

You died because you saw fit to roleplay a secret thief, and were killed when your misdeeds were found out. You must have known that this was a likely outcome - i.e. you brought it on yourself, knowingly.

As for the rest - I think we have a conflict of playing styles here in haven, and the lowest common denominator will win - throw away characters etc. I'd prefer otherwise - but anyone can be murdered at any time, and some of our players appear to like doing so. That mandates minimal attachment to the character - and thus a less fun game, IMO. It's Tuesday, I must be my original character's great great great great grandson - who never develops any personality or identity, outside of a set of stats and possessions, neither of which are really preservable.

p.s. I still miss my original, stolen homestead, and even though my second is objectively better, I have far less pride and attachment to it. What I built as a new player mattered to me. Now I've joined the majority - easy come, easy go, and to hell with role playing.

If thats how you decide to play, fine. But I can easily pick up a new character, decide what I want him to be, and stick to it. I havent stolen a single thing with this new character in over a month since my old one was killed. While I knew he had a chance to die, did I expect it to happen so quickly? No. Did I quit the game because I was shocked by what happen? No. Its a game, people are meant to be killed, even if thats not what everyone wants, they should mildly expect that everyday could be their last, and not get emotionally attached to the character. Perhaps get emotionally attached to a women/man (depending on gender), then you will discover the fun in life. But a video game. Not worth get upset about.

[theTrav]

So just about everyone except the newest newbs has a a main character and either a nature or an industry alt (whatever their main is not) plus quite likely a collection of alts used for storage, for meeting untrustworthy players, for misbehaving unidentifiably, etc. etc.

I don't have any alt's... I am pretty sure I know several other characters who also don't play like that... I think just about everyone is an exaggeration

[Sacro]

getting in this thread late but

... we invest our emotions in a game so much ... a game where so much emotion is at stake ... such an emotional investment ...

a game

a game with nonconsenual pvp and permadeath

do not get emotionally attached to internets, it always ends like this

[Jackard]

Not only that - how much sense does it make to invest so heavily in a game still under development that you become heartbroken when you die?

Everyone here is going to lose everything, the only thing you'll have left over are stories.

[kobnach]

Not only that - how much sense does it make to invest so heavily in a game still under development that you become heartbroken when you die?

Everyone here is going to lose everything, the only thing you'll have left over are stories.

Is it heartbroken? Or is it bored with doing the same old thing all over again, to create another character to be killed, more resources to be stolen, etc. etc.? Yes, games are inherently profitless, and some would thus consider them pointless - but assuming you are going to play games at all, who wants a game that's basically futile? Maybe those who have no "achiever" in their gamer makeup, I suppose. But for me this game's great potential involves building, creating settlements and objects. If whatever one builds is flushed regularly - randomly or otherwise - then there's no longer any game, just a bunch of people insulting each other on forums, or sometimes pontificating about what they believe the game should be like.

I suppose I can compare this with bridge, which I played tonight instead of bothering to check whether the server was up. I came away from a night at the bridge club with my bridge playing skills improved, having had an enjoyable evening, and having gained 0.58 master points. I don't get to keep anything I developed in any particular hand - but that's OK, because that's not the point. In this game, there's precious little to learn, and some of the mechanics are best described as tedious. Building things is where the potential emotional gain lies - homesteads, objects, and character skills/stats. Except it's a non-consensual pvp permadeath game, so that potential is unrealized. Net result - it's a game of trying to grind one's character to decent levels before it gets killed - or build a settlement to a useful and convenient level before it gets trashes, or stolen, or lost to a map reset.

Yes, it's an alpha, so a certain amount of this is to be expected - and tolerable. But most of those pontificating seem to be glorying in it. Of course precious few of them appear to have been killed and/or seriously looted yet - and some of the ones that did whined loud and long when it happened. Most of those I've seen killed who didn't whine about it simply never appeared in forums or game again. Too bad the devs don't mind a revolving door, provided there are always new players to replace the old ones.