H&H LP Economics - After the Death of Bourgeoisie

[DatOneGuy]

A note directly at your points: Your metal quality is effected by your tree quality which although slow to progress (REALLY SLOW AFTER A POINT) is still "un-capped" so smithing is a floating hardcap based on materials. And survival hits a 200 cap before trolls (after which point theories have gone as high as to say 1k is needed). Carpentry is also not "hardcapped" but rather a slow increase because you can technically grind trees infinitely.

Most things can technically go infinitely however with current known (to me) quality spots (which I'm assuming aren't passing 150, going to assume for now around 100 for each type) limit how much you can increase within a year almost assuring you won't pass q200 trees for quite some time (probably 5~6+ months). Most of these `long term` caps depend widely on if this world even last that long.

ah yes, many caps can effectively be shattered if the world lasts long enough:
UA - Uncapped
MC - Uncapped
MM - Highest Q Wood
Exploration - 10k->Uncapped
Stealth - Uncapped
Sewing - Gradual
Smithing - Floating (Boards, Clay, Ore)
Carpentry - Troll Bone Q (->Cow Q 1+ years into game)
Cooking - Gradual
Farming - Gradual
Survival - Troll Bone Q (->Cow Q 1+ years into game)

[Tonkyhonk]

sorry for not replying, still pondering >.< thanks for more inputs, will get back to you later.

[cloakblade]

Am I mistaken on what goes into a tree?

Clay (lets say 80), water (again 80), soil (80) the kiln lets say is the same quality as the clay. So your pot without a seed averages 80.

Now the other things that effect it are the herbalist table: Who's quality is: blocks (previous tree's quality), boards (little higher than last tree's quality) and string (uncapped hemp); And the seed quality which is either the last generation's quality or +/-5 of it I'm not certain (I believe the former). Obviously with out trolls getting past 200q table is hard as the saw will start to soft cap the quality of the boards. But assuming that you can keep at or ahead of that curve. Then each generation will create the fuel to create the next. Though I forget how long each generation is so yeah it may take 5-6 months to up 10q.

[Tonkyhonk]

I started in a village this world, but it annoyed me as hell. I like doing a bit of everything, conducting projects, etc. I guess my heartling was born to be a hermit.

he he.
well, getting annoyed at village business does not always lose your motivations to play the game.
as you just said, you can always choose to hermit as long as you wanna keep on playing.

The problem I see with this world is that any LP-oriented village needs massive amounts of forageables early in the world (blubs, curios) and that not everyone likes to spend 80% of his time grinding anthills and looking for blueberries, and later in this world, roaming mountains and swamps for curios.

im not sure if people actually spend most of their play time on finding curios. that would be too boring...but if that is the case, then the boredom may be caused from their own greed for LP...
your solution sounds like something we call, "easier said than done" stuff.
if crafted curios become too effective, the world would suffer again from bots' prosperity. the line drawn now is probably what jorb and loftar decided appropriate for now, i suppose.
(ppl are botting anyways, but no-bot-users always want them to be less effective)

With this world, I have the feeling that foraging still remains one (if not the) major activity of a village, which, I think, may annoy some players which don't really like it.

hmmm? i have always thought foraging/exploring always remain one major activity of a village...?
it wasnt on previous worlds? how not?

So clearly we make investment decisions on an individual level. If we don't make decisions on a village level then that probably has more to do with problems with coordination and transaction costs than anything.

sounds quite legitimate to me. (damn i still cant find any counters lol)

Most of these `long term` caps depend widely on if this world even last that long.

exactly. and devs cannot tell us when either.
when i started this game, many said we were about to have a world wipe, but instead the world 3 lasted another few months.

Though I forget how long each generation is so yeah it may take 5-6 months to up 10q.

how long it takes varies. even if you choose the right tree at the right place (like fir in coniferous terrain or birch in broadleaf terrain) still the tree decay for the final stage is random. the fastest will be a couple of days, but it can also take weeks sometimes.
also you may wanna check how tree q works this world. ive been trying to find out tree q formula, but none of the previous formulas (they werent correct but still were close enough to figure) seem to work or im just so stupid. so far, either the random value is much higher than +/-10, or a totally different formula is used this world. (im starting to think i just fail... i hate maths anyways.)

[pyrale]

hmmm? i have always thought foraging/exploring always remain one major activity of a village...?
it wasnt on previous worlds? how not?

I don't see which foraging a village needed besides mussels (and maybe bulbs, which are quite limited).

how long it takes varies. even if you choose the right tree at the right place (like fir in coniferous terrain or birch in broadleaf terrain) still the tree decay for the final stage is random. the fastest will be a couple of days, but it can also take weeks sometimes.

If you go for quality I assume you won't wait for the decay to cut the tree .

also you may wanna check how tree q works this world. ive been trying to find out tree q formula, but none of the previous formulas (they werent correct but still were close enough to figure) seem to work or im just so stupid. so far, either the random value is much higher than +/-10, or a totally different formula is used this world. (im starting to think i just fail... i hate maths anyways.)

I heard it was -5/+20, but never tested it myself.

[Tonkyhonk]

I don't see which foraging a village needed besides mussels (and maybe bulbs, which are quite limited).

i can only talk about the village ive experienced, so not sure how it works elsewhere. but our foragers/explorers always came back with not only mussles but also with chants, berries, new resource info (clay, soil, water), along with info on new settlements, new comers, nearby villages claim expansions and such neighbourhood info which was the most critical to us.

If you go for quality I assume you won't wait for the decay to cut the tree

fair enough. i guess i play too cheap

I heard it was -5/+20, but never tested it myself.

for trees? may i ask where you got that info from?

[DatOneGuy]

i can only talk about the village ive experienced, so not sure how it works elsewhere. but our foragers/explorers always came back with not only mussles but also with chants, berries, new resource info (clay, soil, water), along with info on new settlements, new comers, nearby villages claim expansions and such neighbourhood info which was the most critical to us.

This.
Foraging is just a subset of being an ExXxplorer. Explorers are pros, scouts, everything they need to be.

[pyrale]

for trees? may i ask where you got that info from?

'twas in "how do I", cba finding the post (especially since there was no proof or ref to testing).


I agree with you that explorers will do much more than foraging, and that there are plenty of reasons to have some guys that run around and forage, among other things. But "some guys" will never bring enough flotsams, bluebells, edelweiss and so on for a whole village.

Also mussels > chants in my opinion :p.

[Tonkyhonk]

'twas in "how do I", cba finding the post (especially since there was no proof or ref to testing).

hmm thanks, been reading pretty many threads on "how do i" section, i may have missed it then.
or maybe, just maybe, wasnt it about cattles? because having -5/+20 is like, being able to grow q30 trees out of all q10 materials which sounds most unlikely to me...or ive been just unlucky enough not to have one at all.

I agree with you that explorers will do much more than foraging, and that there are plenty of reasons to have some guys that run around and forage, among other things. But "some guys" will never bring enough flotsams, bluebells, edelweiss and so on for a whole village.

glad to hear you agree there, but then, your original statement which made me write that line was;

With this world, I have the feeling that foraging still remains one (if not the) major activity of a village, which, I think, may annoy some players which don't really like it.

so, am i right to take that this line doesnt apply any more?

on world 3, foraging/exploring job wasnt very LP-worthy unless you draw loads of maps (although map drawing LP efficency was rather about doing it at home by just copying, iirc) and match up with occasional hunting, and also its rather harder to level stats compared to mining or farming.
on world 4, foraging LP got much higher but lots less animals to hunt and less mapping LP. rather zero-sum?
so, foragers/explorers, whose job requires lots of efforts and outgoing & friendly nature and everything, even with occasional danger of meeting PKers, had had pretty tough time in previous worlds. (still the job was more fun and less boring for some, i dont remember runing out of wanna-be-explorers before anyways.)
but they can now finally both earn decent LP and do important jobs for their villages, those who dont like the activity can stop foraging later and let the pros continue the work, which sounds more like a win-win situation here? it wont be the good enough reason for motivation loss, right?

as for enough flotsams, bluebells, edelweiss and so on for a whole village, thats where Markoff Chaney's "capitalism" and "investment decision" concept comes in. just like on previous worlds many had bought bulbs for psych or chants/berries for both LP and stats, or inkweed for LP and so on...

i think this sounds logical enough, but i dont know why, somehow i feel there is something wrong in my own argument here. hmmm.

[pyrale]

hmm thanks, been reading pretty many threads on "how do i" section, i may have missed it then.
or maybe, just maybe, wasnt it about cattles? because having -5/+20 is like, being able to grow q30 trees out of all q10 materials which sounds most unlikely to me...or ive been just unlucky enough not to have one at all.

Honestly, it's long ago and you may aswell be right.
About the mats used, I believe they would simply cap the stuff you build (since you don't directly get a Q80 tree out of Q80 mats either)

glad to hear you agree there, but then, your original statement which made me write that line was;

With this world, I have the feeling that foraging still remains one (if not the) major activity of a village, which, I think, may annoy some players which don't really like it.

so, am i right to take that this line doesnt apply any more?

What I was trying to say here, is that there is no common place between last world's foraging time investment (and even counting the other exploring activities) where a town could run efficiently around 1-3 explorers for 5-10 people and this world's where you NEED many many many explorers to get a good income of LPs until the end of the world (that is, unless you can sell insane ressources to get loads of curios - it's not proved but I doubt a large village can live from trade curio-wise).