W5 Money

[DatOneGuy]

Who gives a crap about setting a standard for the entire world? That defeats the entire purpose of a free market. Is someone going to travel from corner to corner to save two pennies? Probably not, but they might go to the next village over.

At this point the whole conversation is moot. The stands are too broken to use and barter works better. Once the stands work properly, then coinage might be used.

Listen up motherfucker.

The 'standard' is what the base is, what everyone accepts as the norm, based on motherfucking science.

From there if you want to charge 200% of that price, do what the fuck you want, but people know what the absolute base is, you'll almost never find shit AT base price though.

It's not for the world, atm, I'm trying mostly to set something for RoB.

[MagicManICT]

Who gives a crap about setting a standard for the entire world? That defeats the entire purpose of a free market. Is someone going to travel from corner to corner to save two pennies? Probably not, but they might go to the next village over.

At this point the whole conversation is moot. The stands are too broken to use and barter works better. Once the stands work properly, then coinage might be used.

Listen up motherfucker.

The 'standard' is what the base is, what everyone accepts as the norm, based on motherfucking science.

From there if you want to charge 200% of that price, do what the fuck you want, but people know what the absolute base is, you'll almost never find shit AT base price though.

It's not for the world, atm, I'm trying mostly to set something for RoB.

Quit being an anal retentive douche. Look at the real world. Where's the 'base' for a bushel of wheat or rice? There isn't, not even in fixed market socialist countries. While in the real world you have problems such as available land space and weather, in game all you have is someone's willingness to break the system. I can guarantee you someone is going to break the system if you go around trying to set bases like this.

If you want to 'set' something for RoB, then do some number crunching and give some equivalency between easily obtainable items like wheat, chants, blueberries, plant fibers, etc. and qualities of said items. You can then give relative comparison to the more uncommon and rare items. You can even compare it to getting a bar of types of metal. You're going to fail without a lot more data than we can get off the forums, though. You'd really need access to the server and transaction logs to give a thorough analysis. Trying to set a 'price' is pointless, though. Everyone is going to value things differently.

[sabinati]

Who gives a crap about setting a standard for the entire world? That defeats the entire purpose of a free market. Is someone going to travel from corner to corner to save two pennies? Probably not, but they might go to the next village over.

At this point the whole conversation is moot. The stands are too broken to use and barter works better. Once the stands work properly, then coinage might be used.

Listen up motherfucker.

The 'standard' is what the base is, what everyone accepts as the norm, based on motherfucking science.

From there if you want to charge 200% of that price, do what the fuck you want, but people know what the absolute base is, you'll almost never find shit AT base price though.

It's not for the world, atm, I'm trying mostly to set something for RoB.

Quit being an anal retentive douche. Look at the real world. Where's the 'base' for a bushel of wheat or rice? There isn't, not even in fixed market socialist countries.

never heard of commodity markets? http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/agricul ... wheat.html

While in the real world you have problems such as available land space and weather, in game all you have is someone's willingness to break the system. I can guarantee you someone is going to break the system if you go around trying to set bases like this.

what does this even mean? it's a set of pricing guidlines, what is there to break?

If you want to 'set' something for RoB, then do some number crunching and give some equivalency between easily obtainable items like wheat, chants, blueberries, plant fibers, etc. and qualities of said items. You can then give relative comparison to the more uncommon and rare items. You can even compare it to getting a bar of types of metal.

that's what he's doing though?

You're going to fail without a lot more data than we can get off the forums, though. You'd really need access to the server and transaction logs to give a thorough analysis.

what?

Trying to set a 'price' is pointless, though. Everyone is going to value things differently.

back in world 3, before i set up the initial "goonbux system" (which was a derivative of delamore's much decried "GOON" currency concept), the trade forum was a mess, people listed items they were buying or selling but had no base pricing or comparative value structure whatsoever. the rest of the thread was people asking "how much X do you want for a Y" and then the OP hemming and hawing back and forth with them over the ratio. once people understood the "goonbux" concept (everything was based on relative value to a bar of common metal, or 1 goonbux) it was pretty simple evolution to the points system, and now all major traders use points for their trade threads. sodom and AD based their early point structure on my goonbux ratios, with some tweaks to undercut here and there (driving down the cost of cavebulbs across the board) or tweaks due to oversupply (tin and linen market crash of aught-ten).

anyway the point being that someone has to restructure the basic value comparisons to fit new paradigms of metal availability, LP via items, etc.

[MagicManICT]

Ever heard of commodity markets? http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/agricul ... wheat.html

Commodity markets don't set base prices. Prices fluctuate on supply and demand (and market speculation in free market economies, but that's a whole other discussion). You can go to the Chicago and Kansas City markets (US) and get slightly different prices. Go to markets in other countries or other regions, and prices won't even go 1:1 after figuring the currency exchanges between countries. There's been better discussion on this here by people way more knowledgeable than me on the subject, so I'm not even going to try and continue on this.

that's what he's doing though?

Actually, he's just reinventing the wheel. It's already done. Just replace what's already in the trade threads for a coin type of a certain quality. The only discussion should be on what those are.

You're going to fail without a lot more data than we can get off the forums, though. You'd really need access to the server and transaction logs to give a thorough analysis.

what?

Maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe the handful of postings in the forums is all you need to understand the fluctuating value of something. Maybe I'm just too used to all the market data from EVE and RL exchanges. After all, we are talking about a much smaller group of people (about 1k-1500 active players?). I'm just thinking of all the possible factors involved: amount of commodities being produced, amount consumed, tracking qualities, etc. I don't think that's as easily obtainable without a set of tools to read those data. Again, I could be wrong.

back in world 3, before i set up the initial "goonbux system" (which was a derivative of delamore's much decried "GOON" currency concept), the trade forum was a mess, people listed items they were buying or selling but had no base pricing or comparative value structure whatsoever. the rest of the thread was people asking "how much X do you want for a Y" and then the OP hemming and hawing back and forth with them over the ratio.

I remember seeing the discussion on that at one point. (I realize it was several months before I joined, but ran across it and it was an interesting read.) From what I gathered, there was no system in place and this was a great idea. From what I've been reading so far, nothing is really changing other than what the "goonbux" is going to be. I think it's a great system because it makes prices easily identifiable. People can even haggle over the final prices if they want (up to the traders involved). The one problem I see is that if anyone values things differently, then they're told they're wrong and 'go find what other people are trading for'.

While in the real world you have problems such as available land space and weather, in game all you have is someone's willingness to break the system. I can guarantee you someone is going to break the system if you go around trying to set bases like this.

what does this even mean? it's a set of pricing guidlines, what is there to break?

Take the "goonbux" example. If someone (or a group of someones) really wanted to, they could flood the market with that particular type and quality (or better Q) devaluing everything. That's what there is to break. It drives traders nuts. (I've watched enough of this type of shenanigan in games with very strong economic systems, not to mention the crap that's gone on in RL.)

Again, nothing different is being done, just dividing the base item into 100. That shouldn't be too hard. If one bar of q20-25 bronze is worth 24 q30+ 'chants (just for example), then a q30+ 'chant is worth 4 coins. What's so hard about that? What's all the discussion for? I thought there was more being discussed than what was already in existence.

[Potjeh]

I really don't understand what you're arguing against here. Care to explain the elaborate strawman you constructed?

[sabinati]

Commodity markets don't set base prices. Prices fluctuate on supply and demand (and market speculation in free market economies, but that's a whole other discussion). You can go to the Chicago and Kansas City markets (US) and get slightly different prices. Go to markets in other countries or other regions, and prices won't even go 1:1 after figuring the currency exchanges between countries. There's been better discussion on this here by people way more knowledgeable than me on the subject, so I'm not even going to try and continue on this.

commodity markets track prices. you were saying that there wasn't a base price for a bushel of wheat. i'm saying that there is, depending on location and when you want it (trading futures etc.). obviously the real world is far more complex and prices fluctuate based on various factors but at some point, some dudes in chicago sat down a the the table and said "wheat is $4 a bushel" or whatever.

we are talking about setting up base pricing for one marketplace, the RoB. obviously the prices will be subject to change, this is about setting a starting price based on empirical value, because right now prices are fucking retarded in every trade thread i've seen for world 5.

Actually, he's just reinventing the wheel. It's already done. Just replace what's already in the trade threads for a coin type of a certain quality. The only discussion should be on what those are.

what's already done? again, prices are fucking retarded in every trade thread i've seen for world 5.

Maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe the handful of postings in the forums is all you need to understand the fluctuating value of something. Maybe I'm just too used to all the market data from EVE and RL exchanges. After all, we are talking about a much smaller group of people (about 1k-1500 active players?). I'm just thinking of all the possible factors involved: amount of commodities being produced, amount consumed, tracking qualities, etc. I don't think that's as easily obtainable without a set of tools to read those data. Again, I could be wrong.

this market is small enough that there isn't a great deal of fluctuation. things like supply and demand matter, but here they are fairly constant, and again, this is about establishing a baseline of relative value (from which there are expected to be some deviation in the market based on people's personal opinions of value).

I remember seeing the discussion on that at one point. (I realize it was several months before I joined, but ran across it and it was an interesting read.) From what I gathered, there was no system in place and this was a great idea. From what I've been reading so far, nothing is really changing other than what the "goonbux" is going to be. I think it's a great system because it makes prices easily identifiable. People can even haggle over the final prices if they want (up to the traders involved). The one problem I see is that if anyone values things differently, then they're told they're wrong and 'go find what other people are trading for'.

what's changing is the relative values of things. like i said earlier, metal availability has changed, and there is an entirely new scale of value in the curiosity system.

the times that i recall people getting told they are wrong, they were so far off of any reasonable price that it was laughable.

Take the "goonbux" example. If someone (or a group of someones) really wanted to, they could flood the market with that particular type and quality (or better Q) devaluing everything. That's what there is to break. It drives traders nuts. (I've watched enough of this type of shenanigan in games with very strong economic systems, not to mention the crap that's gone on in RL.)

Again, nothing different is being done, just dividing the base item into 100. That shouldn't be too hard. If one bar of q20-25 bronze is worth 24 q30+ 'chants (just for example), then a q30+ 'chant is worth 4 coins. What's so hard about that? What's all the discussion for? I thought there was more being discussed than what was already in existence.

the ability to flood the market hasn't really changed though, not that flooding the market really possible. what are you gonna flood it with? anything of value takes some time/effort to produce and if it has value, someone wants it.

you seem to be missing the point if you think all that's being discussed is the fact that a bar is 100 coins.

[ScegfOd]

It seems to me that magic is arguing that a coin has a front side and sab is arguing that a coin also has a back side....
hmmm I'd like to elaborate but I have to go >_>
maybe I'll come back and edit this post <_<
or not, if no one complains about my ambiguity

[MagicManICT]

It seems to me that magic is arguing that a coin has a front side and sab is arguing that a coin also has a back side....
hmmm I'd like to elaborate but I have to go >_>
maybe I'll come back and edit this post <_<
or not, if no one complains about my ambiguity

LOL!

Maybe I'm just looking at things wrong. I've been thinking all evening (here, anyway) about a good response, and I'm not sure what to say that I haven't already said. Maybe I'm not quite sure what's being discussed. Maybe I'm not making my points clear enough.

In the end, if you're just wanting to set a base to start with, pick something. Make it equal to something else. It can be completely and totally arbitrary. (isn't it always?) Within a few weeks, the prices will start self adjusting. Just ignore everything I said. <shrug>

[ScegfOd]

the problem is you're both arguing the same thing
Magic: the price is set by the traders.
Sab: but some traders set certain prices!
Magic: but noone can set the price for someone elses trade!
Sab: but if someone sees a different price, they'll stick with the better price!
me: kind of like the price being set by the traders....
Magic: lol

[Saphireking65]

the problem is you're both arguing the same thing
Magic: the price is set by the traders.
Sab: but some traders set certain prices!
Magic: but noone can set the price for someone elses trade!
Sab: but if someone sees a different price, they'll stick with the better price!
me: kind of like the price being set by the traders....
Magic: lol

I think that pretty much sums up their argument.

In order for any standardized currency to work, the main traders of the world have to come together and agree on one. It won't stop bartering, you can still trade X for Y, it will just introduce a Z into the formula. For example, trader A is selling X, but not buying Y. Trader B is buying Y, but not selling X. Now how do you get your X if all you have is Y? By introducing Z into the formula, you can go to trader B and sell your Y for Z, and then go to trader A to buy his X for Z. Of course, this will only work if Traders A and B have agreed that Z is worth the same thing to them.