Now that the lag is gone.

[mvgulik]

In all seriousness though, I had thought about playing a raider a few times. Why? Because I need to re-learn danger and learning how to die once more which, in my opinion, is actually an important part of a player's staying power in Haven. Odd as it may sound, learning how to cope with death or loss of a base is a required skill and a steel yourself for the loss of a character (and I do not mean disposable vandalism alts). Also, as a raider, I will inevitably be tracked, assaulted, and re-learning how to think on my feet once more. (Of course should I go with the plan, I apologize to my quarry ahead of time.)

+1

A parts of haven I never explored. While knowing I should have.

[Grable]

lol, "combat oriented"...LMAO Griefing isn't combat oriented, it isn't PVP, it's griefing. "Combat oriented" would be factions or individual persons seeking challange in combat against each other or other factions. Running around bashing noobs, tearing stuff down stuff and killing noobs is not combat oriented, it's sociopathic childish bullying. Do I feel sorry or bothered for wishing those kind of people dead in real life...not at all. It's real life, people die, I'd rather it be assholes. And as for the "bash" brigade like that limp dick burmingham, anyone who doesn't agree with the childish griefing noob killing is some sort of hysterical chick...LMAO

I just don't like asshole bully pricks, not in real life OR games. I'm not gonna change my beliefs and preferences just because it's a game. But search through thew archives biddy diddy Burmy, There's lots more you can play with....also a typical bully tactic..lol

It's very simple, I don't like assholes in real life, and I'm not excusing it in a game. No "issues" involved excpet not backing down to bully assholes in RL or a game. So...(And I guess I'll quote Christian A.) "And if ya don't like it fuck you!" You are what you are, if you wanna sit around and play semantics about how you aren't REALLY an asshole, bully or sociopath in RL just because you "just act like one in a game"...go for it. No bigger fool exists than one who tries to fool themselves.

lol. oh drama queens oh drama queens....there's nothing wrong with war games or pvp. Most high quality pvp games (And players) have little things called scrupples. Most people who play those types of games enjoy combat CHALLENGES. Stratetegic challenges. Are those things possible here? Of course they are...I've watched some exquisite faction wars here over the years, and likewise watched exquisite personal grudge pvp played out in the congress and in-game. None of those people wasted their time running around bashing noob farmers in little pallys. Get real. You walk around with 300 MM and a q200 bow and you gonna tell me shooting some 3 day old noob fishing with a q5 rod is some kind of "challenging PVP oriented victory"...LMFAO.

The whole funny thing is how these uber griefers run around griefing everyone execpt THOSE who would give them a CHALLENGE. That's not combat oriented, and it's not PVP, it's BULLY COWARD shite. No strategy, no challenge. All I'm saying is stop trying to equate griefing with actual combat/pvp game play. It's not, it's 2 totally different things.

[burgingham]

lol, "combat oriented"...LMAO Griefing isn't combat oriented, it isn't PVP, it's griefing. "Combat oriented" would be factions or individual persons seeking challange in combat against each other or other factions. Running around bashing noobs, tearing stuff down stuff and killing noobs is not combat oriented, it's sociopathic childish bullying. Do I feel sorry or bothered for wishing those kind of people dead in real life...not at all. It's real life, people die, I'd rather it be assholes. And as for the "bash" brigade like that limp dick burmingham, anyone who doesn't agree with the childish griefing noob killing is some sort of hysterical chick...LMAO

This post demonstrates rather well how narrow mind you really are. Had you followed the biggest arguments and discussions I had with people in the time before I left the forums, you would have noticed that I am very, very much on your side concerning many of the things you are talking about.

I agree that a majority of those that choose to play a game for the sole purpose of bullying others or "playing the bad guy" are nothing but retards or sociopaths that need to compensate for whatever their real life is not giving them. They usually conceal that with such nice stories as "I just play a role" or whatever. Playing the role of hurting other people's gameplay is bad and only assholes do it. The end.

Problem is your way of communicating it. I mean I am pretty much hated by each and everyone of those bullies for my way of bringing it to them and compared to you I am an innocent little angel ^^

In other words, online PVP gaming is populated by churlish, cowardly, vindictive, petty bullies who get off on punishing weak defenseless noobs whilst avoiding strong, well armed opponents.

I do agree with that too after observing some other games now that I played after leaving HnH and usually in those games PvP does not even have a real impact. Yet it is always the same type of people pursuing it.

You guys have some pretty valid points. In game theory as in real life political theory. Your problem is that you'd like to figuratively - and literally - rip anyones head off who dares to argue against you. You never try to address their arguments one by one and answer to them to engage in a meaningful discussion. You call them some name, wish them death and leave. Best example was putting me in the same group as the griefers you are verbally attacking here.

[Amanda44]

Well, I think you are both being far too harsh. The majority (not all) of those who 'run around bashing noobs, tearing stuff down and killing noobs' are probably aged between 12 - 16, i.e. children. Children are like that, lol, it doesn't make them all sociapathic bullies! It makes them childish. Children are by nature selfish, they want fun and excitement, they want things and they want them now, they get bored with organised structure and 'chores' and they like to wreak havoc.

You, Rhiannon, use the word 'childish' repeatedly and there is your answer, children rarely understand the full consequences of thier actions or the impact they can have on others, this is a lesson that fully comes home with leaving the nest and facing the big wide world, along with maturity, empathy and hopefully unselfishness.

Ofc there will be younger players who may be bullies, maybe even sociapaths and i'm sure there are a couple of adult ones in that mix too, but on the whole, they are just children, having fun in the way children do. Hopefully they will grow up to develop a stronger conscience and a better understanding of thier impact in the world, hindered only by people like you with no tolerance or understanding what-so-ever, who berate them on a monumental scale rather than providing a better role model.

The way you talk to people Rhiannon and the insults and language you use, honestly makes you no better imo!

[Patchouli_Knowledge]

This is what I have been wandering for a while now. Through the conversation, I've noticed that some of the people posted here have actually iterated on what Rhiannon said. I myself actually agree with you that a lot of people only enjoy picking on the weaker which I think because do not like to lose especially when losing makes you lose your character; though making people miserable, I have failed to figured as of yet but I have suspicion that the reason isn't one reason alone.

Rhiannon, what I do not agree on is the fact that your response to other people. Debating against them is fine, but mocking and insulting them does not help your standpoint to the matter and your constant LOLOLOL and LMAO doesn't help your view either. What I suggest is having more tact within yours words; having concrete evidence will also help as well. And by heaven's sake, do not meet people's response with aggression; that only works for honey badgers. Of course, feel free to ignore me if the only thing you wish to do is blow off stream and rant.



Anyhow, I probably should steal the devil's mantle and use it for a bit.

Griefing is entirely out of control within Haven. Such actions include:

• Constantly destroying player's property and killing them, making it near impossible for them to play the game properly. One may argue that this is a built in nature of Haven itself as it is a simulation of human behavior. However, the griefers are also utilizes exploits of the game-system to avoid repercussion from the game's scent system and making impossible to kill. Which also leads us to...
• Using exploits and bugs to bypassing or easily destroying defense that should have taken much more effort than it should. This means even the best defense, the brick wall, is useless against them even to a player that properly takes precaution and patrols the wall. This is where it stops being a simulation game and becomes a griefing game.
• Using in-game methods to hinder the progress such as building palisades on gates crossroads of settlements thus trapping them in their own home. Also spamming alts to annoy or impeding player's progress.
• Luring or herding aggressive animals to newbies that do not know how to defend themselves, thus getting killed while the griefer avoids the scent system as they themselves did not kill the newbie.
• Utilizing third person program or scripts created by custom clients to creating many lines of text in a way that causes large amount of delays to either interfere
• Constantly and intentionally breaking the rules of the forum by spamming pointless text, harassing moderators, posting not safe for work or disturbing images, avatars, or signature post, or constantly necroing posts for no good reasons, all for the point of causing people annoyance or grief.

This does not include

• Killing people out of revenge or material gain. This is intended by the developers.
• Slandering people. This is part of the political nature of multiplayer games.
• Being a villain (just for the sake of being a bad guy). Again this is part of the sandbox nature of the game and even part of role playing as well. This may includes preying on the weak.

(and if I am repeating anything you said, Amanda, my apologies for my tardiness.)

[burgingham]

Well, I think you are both being far too harsh. The majority (not all) of those who 'run around bashing noobs, tearing stuff down and killing noobs' are probably aged between 12 - 16, i.e. children. Children are like that, lol, it doesn't make them all sociapathic bullies! It makes them childish. Children are by nature selfish, they want fun and excitement, they want things and they want them now, they get bored with organised structure and 'chores' and they like to wreak havoc.

Ok, I can agree with that. But everytime I add the word "child" to my arguments, i.e. "You are either a sociopath or a child." people get incredibly offended by the child part. So I stopped calling them that. I guess they think I only call them childish, when I really think they are actual children.

I would not recommend anyone to take anyone from here as a role model btw. These forums always were a hellhole, even in their best times. That is what I love and hate about them.


@Patch, I wouldn't want to mix bug abuse and mindless griefing here for the sake of the discussion. Sure in reality they often overlap, but if we make this a bug abuse debate now...well we all know where this ends.

[Amanda44]

(and if I am repeating anything you said, Amanda, my apologies for my tardiness.)

No, Patch, you're fine.

Well, I think you are both being far too harsh. The majority (not all) of those who 'run around bashing noobs, tearing stuff down and killing noobs' are probably aged between 12 - 16, i.e. children. Children are like that, lol, it doesn't make them all sociapathic bullies! It makes them childish. Children are by nature selfish, they want fun and excitement, they want things and they want them now, they get bored with organised structure and 'chores' and they like to wreak havoc.

Ok, I can agree with that. But everytime I add the word "child" to my arguments, i.e. "You are either a sociopath or a child." people get incredibly offended by the child part. So I stopped calling them that. I guess they think I only call them childish, when I really think they are actual children.

Ofc they do, what child likes being called childish! Esp when in their own minds they are more adult than the adults, lol, but how else will they learn? As a child you want nothing more than to be grown up and accepted by those older than you. Being told your behaviour is 'childish' won't be liked, but, if reiterated by enough of those the child wants to be accepted by, it will at least make that child think about it. Far more so than he/she will by being called names or insulted.

I would not recommend anyone to take anyone from here as a role model btw. These forums always were a hellhole, even in their best times. That is what I love and hate about them.

- Whilst I would agree on the whole, by saying that you are doing yourself a disservice, along with people like Teck, Borka, Em, Patch, Tonky and so on. When they spend so many hrs here they are bound to relate to, admire and look up to someone. Preferably people like these.

[burgingham]

Seems they rather look up to that other kind of people thought which roam these forum. The ones this thread is about.

I guess there is always hope

[Potjeh]

Sabinati is my role model.

[burgingham]

I don't like Sabinati anymore. He told me I am an ass