Is Haven Sustainable?

[Arcanist]

As much as everyone hates it, statcaps and quality caps are the only way to prevent the 'catchup' problem, be that in the form of character s dying of old age, or exponential (or with LP's system linear) skill decay, or flat out caps.
But in an old world there will still be huge citys and mines that have already been built and abandoned by players.
I would like to see an ever changing world, where the map, nodes, veins and caves change over time, with some form of statcap in place.

In it's current form, there is a finite amount of metal, without incluting numen metal, so the map will eventually run it's course.

[Ninijutsu]

I would like to see an ever changing world, where the map, nodes, veins and caves change over time, with some form of statcap in place.

[GrapefruitV]

Then what sort of changes would work for you, that you could enjoy something that is constant - Other than this really ass boring late game? Are you averse to any sort of activity whatsoever?

Here are directions of changes, which could keep both types of players interested in my opinion (please note I said directions, because actual ideas of changes require a lot more thinking and discussion, than a post I'm writing in 5 minutes I have before my banana cakes will get burned):
1. Easier late world raiding. Brickwalls should not be that good protection itself. But it can not be way too easy when it comes to developed villages either, because you shouldn't be able to destroy months of someone elses work in few hours.
2. Easier punishment for criminals. It is impossible to raid island vault now, if owner is active. Like a solution for both paragraphs rams drying time could depend on amount of developed members of the village claim it is standing on. For example if you have 10+ oathed characters with more than 10 000 000lp, ram drying would take current 24h, if you have 15+ it is 30h, if you have 5+ it is 18h, and 12h for personal claims and less than 5 people idols (all the numbers are pretty random). Though it is alt encouraging, so would be better count members not by total amount of lp, but by lp they are getting in a week, it should be close to average for current world stage to consider character as active. There also should be a maximum for drying time around 30-40h, because big factions could put a lot of effort to be undestructable. But for such changes some of current mechanics should also be taken into account and maybe changed, like 8h rams, destroyable authority objects, etc. Generation of only bigger size islands in the first place also could kill atleast one type of vaults.
3. More reasons to leave your walls. A lot of people to meet is the upside of the early world for both groups, doesn't matter if the reason why you are glad to see someone ingame is ability to kill them or to communicate. New unwallable types of resources, increase the importance of hunting in the late world (something Salem-like for instance, you need a wild animal brain for each hide you're going to make into leather) and so on.
4. Alts discouraging measures. This one is really hard. I have no ideas, which could have atleast a tyniest chance to work.
5. More content obviously. Everyone including devs know this is need to be done. New content should include something that would need a lot of effort to be done and slow down villages development, some resources consuming buildings, which would take a while to build even for big factions.

I had something else in my mind, but hard to remember now, because my time is out.

[GrapefruitV]

I mean, don't get me wrong. I am all for a stable environment at some point especially sooner rather than later but are you really saying you ENJOY the pace of the game later on???!!!!! I understand how building your village/industry is important and can also be fun and/or relaxing but there really is a point you get to where you're just doing the same things over and over and over again all day every day. Maybe a few chance encounters with some (un)friendly players thrown in but otherwise...

Yeah, I enjoy construction at later stage. In early world your goal is to get big enough brickwall fast, cheap and preferably around high q resources, you have no time to think about aestetics, your freedom of place choice is limited, industry areas are raw and limited too and need to be rebuilt later. To understand why this is fun to me you also should take into account, that I barely use bots, so doing every step I'm actually playing the game, even if it is routine and boredome. I like the concept of your time and effort converting into something useful and/or beautiful itself. I'll just name some construction projects, which kept me entertained:
- in w4 I palisaded a huge "island", it was a big piece of land surrounded by rivers, about 2-3 w6 Dis' sizes. And I was alone. Pali itself took not that much time, about 5 days maybe, but banners were an issue, especially when I covered about 25% and it became impossible to keep authority by myself, tried to play in 3 windows making bukets, hunting and harvesting huge fields at the same time (without bots), but it didn't work and half of the time authority was lower than 50k. I know this is retarded and I knew that back then, but this is how sandbox works, you're making your own goal and working on it, even though it was a shitty one. I have to admit, w4 was not really fun for me because of lack of communication, all my friends from w3 were inactive.
- in w5 I just never stopped building my village. Did it by sections. It was chaotic and we never needed that much space, but I liked that all the sections are so different and kept doing it. I was just building a weird shape plot and thought about possible purpose for it later. Met a lot of nice people while I was trying to fill up the empty space. Map is outdated, by the end of the world its size was around red lines. Built all the brickwalls except the small one between cliffs all by myself, no bots involved, so it took a while.

- in w6 I rebuilt my treefarm few times, tried to build a pepper factory (never finished iirc, but this is a good example of a thing to build at later stages, it is not necessary, so you don't need to build it right away, but it is good to have someday), started safe town for noobs building few weeks before wipe, it should have had interesting architecture (two islands, both bugrams protected) and I was getting fun socializing, even though we had time to find only very few villagers for it.
- in w7 I was going to wall a pretty big lake and a few swamps, but due to a bunch of reasons I played only for 2-3 weeks.
- unknown formulas research is always interesting
- and ofcourse tileart in every world

Without world resets, the game would be full of Titans with crazy UA running all over the place, and people who would be able to bash Bwalls with their fists and bargin-bin gold and other random unfathomable things.
Even though they were because of outside factors, the game would be broken if the world didn't reset.

I hope that Hafen will fix the issue though.
Let us pray...

I don't agree with that. There are a lot of examples of people catching up in no time after long break or late starts. This is possible because of quality system, not in despite of it. Plus there is traditional - change slider, which makes average warrior skills a lot lower, than it could be. Besides people quit, loose interest, die. And as it was already said, bigger/stronger group of players will crush you at any stage.

[Tonkyhonk]

I am not saying we should just let Jorb and Loftar take care of it all themselves.

if anything, its not the matter of "letting" them. they will take care of haven all themselves anyways, no matter what.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

I am not saying we should just let Jorb and Loftar take care of it all themselves.

if anything, its not the matter of "letting" them. they will take care of haven all themselves anyways, no matter what.

Thanks Tonkyhonk. I wouldn't have known that unless you pointed it out.

4. Alts discouraging measures. This one is really hard. I have no ideas, which could have atleast a tyniest chance to work.

Provide incentive for people to put all their eggs in one basket:
Create some resource (hearth spirits) that is rare, that provides a very important form of character development necessary to fight well. You attach this to a village idol, and everyone oathed to that village receives the benefit. It could replace UAC/MC (although it would need to have less weight in combat, as it currently stands.)
If anyone oathed to the village dies, the village loses some percentage of that resource.

[Chakravanti]

Provide incentive for people to put all their eggs in one basket:
Create some resource (hearth spirits) that is rare, that provides a very important form of character development necessary to fight well. You attach this to a village idol, and everyone oathed to that village receives the benefit. It could replace UAC/MC (although it would need to have less weight in combat, as it currently stands.)
If anyone oathed to the village dies, the village loses some percentage of that resource.

A village hardcap on charecter development? Maybe a softcap that doesn't prevent development but nerfs your char until the totem is up to your level (so you don't actually lose points, only what you can use).

In the end though it sounds like just another wheel to grind that prevents new players front gaining a foothold in a developed world rather than promoting any diversity of investment or giving players difficult self-limiting choices (in favor of different benefits).

I've always proposed expanding on diversity of investment.

"Class" if you will but nothing more overtly so than we have now, just more of it. As it stands there are several ways to develop a useful fighting charecter that are effective at different tactics. Nothing more, really, than creating more equipment and more moves that buff and pull from varying stats. Throwing knives could pull from Dex for damage. Dual wielding with a short offhand might pull from both strength and agility. Some kinds of swords might be better for some moves than others.

When I think of "class" I think of shadowbane. Rediculously near infinate recombinations for optmially developed types such that years after the game was over people still argued about how to make the best particular type of charecter. Although there needn't be any system of class to inspire diversity of invesment choices. I don't want this or any other game to become shadowbane. Shadowbane WAS however instrumental in making Sandbox warfare games a thing. It came before guild wars and that whole era and introduce many unprecedented mechanics (and ultimately was not without its many horrible flaws).

No one charecter should be universally invicnible purely by merit of development. Everyone should have a weakness and well-roundedness itself becomes a weakness but not because the char is actually weak but because anyone else can make a more powerful charecter for 1-4/10ths the expense and thus, during a fight, risk a fraction what your well-rounder is risking while being on-par (though the well-rounder should be able to switch to your weakness if he carries the EQ).

Having anscestors with high stats might provide consumable weapons (ghost sword, throwing knives, etc.) to give more incentives (and types of charecters to develop and die) toward mixing crafters and fighters to recieve stat-combo development-specific numen rewards. For Example, Perc+Dex might give a one-use "spear" thats maybe twice as powerful than any spear that can be crafted and retrieved but only has one shot and vanishes within an hour if unused. So that it isn't just einherjarspekt that's covering your ass while you're weak.

When you have more options from numen and development type, instead of *combining anscestors* it might be the sort of thing where you get to choose between anscestors when invoking a prayer.

That's what I suggest to make 'the grind and the gamble' more interesting

TL;DR - Having choices on how to grind a charecter forward makes the grind itself more interesting and can be used to reduce a single-charecter's ability to be universally combat-safe. It also makes combat more interesting and risky.

As to NODE DEPLETION/RESPAWN:

hen quality was put in Jorb made a comment about considering exactly this feature. I've always been enthusiasticly in support of this. The supply of a node could be increased if it never regenerated. Point for point, randomly each point gets sent out to a pre-existing node unless it's <30. At 20, the node should die and respawn in another supergrid (a supergrid with fewer nodes would get higher likelihood of recieving the new node) and be Q30.

To get higher than Q30 anything (orwhatever the bar minimu for a node would be) You've got to run around finding and destroying any similar node that has more than 30 points. Total points are conserved. total number of nodes are conserved and the harvest of resources for basic purposes keeps the probability of high quality nodes coming in.

Leaving everyone with the decision: Do we harvest the good stuff now or hope people elsewhere in the world are making bricks/etc. Destroying all the clay nodes in your area to make bricks and increase the odds that your secured HQ acre clay node is the one that gets the point when the

Fast-Depletion would mean that people don't build villages where they build them because of nearby nodes unless it is one that they are trying to protect. It also hardens the general softcap the games overall material quality development. This can be good because it stretches out the period where all are equal and makes securing Titan-Status (relatively) more difficult but it also reduces the investment:return ratio of pretty much all activity.

Slow-depletion would have all the same effects but look more like a system where a node replenishes like it does now but has it cap take a hit after so much clay has been taken from the node in total.

Ultimately I see this as the only way to remove the absolute-capitalization of HQ resources. It will drive UP value of such by reducing supply and also ultimately reduce trade. At the same time Jorb spoke of this in w2 when quality was being implemented a major concern of his at the time was the viability of engaging in trade. He went undercover into the playerbase just to prove that trade was possibvle because at this point everyone was still paranoid of other players because of hilarious exploits during a hilariously broken w1.

That said, if the supply is reduced but the demand is also reduced then trade can remain as it is with less actual volume of goods being traded but total traded value in the world would remain relatively stable (even if intangible and unmeasureable - it can be seen by reports of side-effects). To do this, the required resources to make constructions could be reduced or the construction made more effective LIKE GIVING OVENS A 3x3!!!!! (OMFG I hate ovens /rantlol).

TL;DR - Node Depletion is the mechanism needed to keep the world volatile by ultimately reducing supply of HQ goods to the high-end players who have secured it and making it more available to ALL other players

~~~~~~~~~~~~And on Which half of the game is enjoyable?~~~~~~~~~~~

I think the goal is to stretch the mid-game out and blur the lines between the ends so it's a more gradual development. By slowing down the progress toward the era of a secured-grind the world remains semi-volatile longer, There will be a sweet spot where volatility becomes self-reproducing so that mid-game itself is a perpetual state.

TL;DR - Comprimise, because niether is enjoyable to most players but aperpetual mid-game represents the best and worst of both worlds.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

A village hardcap on charecter development? Maybe a softcap that doesn't prevent development but nerfs your char until the totem is up to your level (so you don't actually lose points, only what you can use).

In the end though it sounds like just another wheel to grind that prevents new players front gaining a foothold in a developed world rather than promoting any diversity of investment or giving players difficult self-limiting choices (in favor of different benefits).

The development/grind component of that idea is less important than a form of shared development among the village. The idea is that it does not matter if you make a bunch of alts, if one of them dies, your whole still suffers for it.

Also I would argue that it does quite the opposite of preventing new players from gaining a foothold. If they make a good alliance and join a developed village, they will be given a huge step up in their ability to defend themselves instantly. They would just need to find someone willing to trust them, as the inviting group would be putting their own combat potential at risk as well.

As far as making a new village out in nowhere, without any help whatsoever from any other forces? It would certainly be difficult, but not impossible - If "crime" were easier to punish, I don't think murdering of newbs would be as rampant as it is now.

[Satan_from_Brodgar]

Some people like the early game for excitement, others like end game for peace. I think there is a way to merge the two into one.

Lets get rid of 'early game' an 'end game' and just call it the game.

1. Lets take 'noobnes' of early game and keep it. A Soft-points (points that wear off)and hard-points (points that always remain) system that allows everyone's chances be the same, but rewards your Real skill. Everyone has a chance to defend, but you have to learn HOW to use fight mechanics to make the best tactics. With 1-2 week of strength activities (cutting trees, mining, fighting) you are pretty much at the top and are able to take care of yourself. 20 Str points would be pretty much as far as you can stretch but not a hardcap. With 5 you can unarmed kill a fox . With 5 you can Melee a boar to death. With 10-14 you can Melee a bear to death but you would need to know some tactics. At first you would gain soft points. but withing time these soft points transform into hard points. Soft points would be gained by Str activities and study. How fast you gain these Str points would be determined by your diet. If you eat a lot of bear meat, your body gains str points faster. 10 points wouldn't be hard to achieve but if you want to have 20, then you really need to dedicate yourself to eat str stuff and do str stuff.

This would prevent boting because you don't need to grind. With 2 weeks you HARD-point 10 str and have 5 SOFT-points. 15 points and able to fight like a beast. And even if someone bots those who do ,don't benefit as much because everyone is somewhat equals.

So with 10 Strength points you could defeat 15 strength by knowing how to fight. I think it would benefit everyone if they could defend themselves. Raiders would attack knowing that other people most likely have the ability to defend. And non-raiders could be more active foragers because they would know that they have a nice chance to return alive. In the end this would NOT stop fighting, but would make it more fun, because everyone can do it.

This logic would apply other attributes like Agility , Int , cons , Perc , Char , Dext and Psyche.

Don't see much need in 'skills' like AU , MC , MM , exploration , sewing , Farming and all those other ones. These skills already require attributes to work so we can might as well remove skills and leave attributes. So it would be more simpler , cleaner and would require less grinding. You want to Sew well, well get Dexterity and good tools.

Discovery/study would be used not for LP farming but for additional SOFT- points for your attributes. You study a bluebell and you gain INT points. You study a bear tooth and you gain Str point. These study points would wear off within time, so you would have to repeat to gain these additional points.

A faster level-up , a faster downfall would keep character progression similar to early game. But would still contain that 'high end' combat when you use tactics.

2. MORE resource NODES, But much FASTER DEPLETION. . Fast depleting clay (and can we change B-walls to Stone-walls). Fast depleting iron, etc. The quality would be great at first, but would drop FAST. You might even need to use couple nodes to create a single amazing item. Have clay under soil so you would have to take more time to search for nodes. Not boat-hoop between them to quality check.

These rare nodes would force the community to remain active. Nobody would stagnate , no clan would be in control.

-/-

-I could get into removing teleportation (And replace with: Horses, Boats , Carts , Roads , Oath-Gates).

-Removing personal and village claims (Blood (murdered ,injured) scents for everyone to see).

-No-name system where noone has a character name but everyone names (kins) others on how they self-introduce. If you die, you can reincarnate your kin list. But you gain a reincarnation(family) name. All those who kined you can see your new self with your new family name.

-Proper tools for village/community formation and management like member/plot list and assignment, Oath-gates , Market stands.

-Oath-Gates/doors that work somewhat like claims.

TLDR- High risk, fast cycle gameplay , that makes everyone more equal on ingame stats.

[GrapefruitV]

1. Lets take 'noobnes' of early game and keep it. [...]
This would prevent boting because you don't need to grind. With 2 weeks you HARD-point 10 str and have 5 SOFT-points. 15 points and able to fight like a beast. And even if someone bots those who do ,don't benefit as much because everyone is somewhat equals.

Sounds like it would kill whole point of permadeath, but only for raiders and criminals. Too easy to create a char able to fight. Death of crafter or farmer would be a lot more painfull, if you apply such changes only to combat. If you apply it to all the skills and professions (which you do), inability to progress will kill a lot of fun current game has. Just look at Salem, one of it's biggest problems is hardcap on quality of everything, most people quit right after they build everything there is to build. I think the only thing in HnH quality system worth changing is crops quality, you can catch up with everything else at any stage, if you put enough work.

So with 10 Strength points you could defeat 15 strength by knowing how to fight. I think it would benefit everyone if they could defend themselves. Raiders would attack knowing that other people most likely have the ability to defend. And non-raiders could be more active foragers because they would know that they have a nice chance to return alive. In the end this would NOT stop fighting, but would make it more fun, because everyone can do it.

I'm speaking for myself now, because I don't know how other "farming-oriented" players feel about that, but the reason why I will be killed in combat is not that I can't make a decent character (I can and I did a lot of times), connection is not "being farmer > not having a combat alt > ending up killed", but "being not interested in HnH combat in the first place > being farmer > not having combat experience > not having skill, knowledge and fast reaction > ending up killed". On the contrary, having a better char than average pvp-kid saved my ass and gave me ability to run from attackers few times. The point is, aggressive players will be more skilled than me anyway, because they will have plenty of time, will and material to practice. Besides raiders and criminals prefer to go outside with groups, so lonely hunter/forager is doomed with both systems.