Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[venatorvenator]

Instead of limits, how about changing the LP cost progression for increasing the skills?

An example: I co-gm'ed a forum-based RPG once. One thing that worked well was restricting the stat range so that every player would would have similar stats. Although there was no limit, increasing them was very costly. The most important thing, though: For the fighting system the formulas put more weight on equipment than on stats, aiming to reproduce what happens in real life.

So, basically, people didn't have extremely different stats, but they still worked hard to get higher quality equipment for that edge in combat etc. For Haven it's also a plus that we actually work on the resources ourselves so there would be an active struggle for better quality materials and production tools.

[LadyV]

Limiting the skill system only serves to dumb down the game. Ive never been a fan of games that say you can not progress beyond this point. People who play longer and work at things should be ahead of others. This is not a a bad thing it is a rightful reward to dedication and work. And don't give the no lifer argument. Most thing in haven take little time to maintain once you are used to it. If anything we need more skills and options for which to spend our LP on.

Variety and content create specialization. If you foster specialization instead of limits it makes it harder to create super characters and values those who take time to focus. You can set limits by skill levels. Say you can craft steel without a certain level or can't wield a B12 without certain skill or a certain level in melee... Removing unlimited progress is not the solution. It already limits its self by increasing difficulty.

If anything has a potential for limitation its stats. But even then it assumes a real world argument. But this crushes the heroic lore attraction. So I dont advise this either.

Hermits...all i have to say is you seriously underestimate the number and their value.

[RubyRed]

In game long distance travel should take time. It does make people explore the world. Only time I feel people should having the ability to port is on log in. Just in case there is an issue of how they are placed when they logged out.

[Potjeh]

Please read before criticizing. I'm suggesting capping the delta, not the raw numbers.

galore? wasnt it just home-boston? anyways, i believe my point still stands?

Yeah, and with two characters you could teleport loot and regen food between your base and the target via Boston. Anyway, Salem is not representative of anything, because it never had a real playerbase. In a multi-faction world a faction that expends inordinate amount of time on raiding hermits in far-flung corners of the world would fall behind a faction that plays more efficiently.

[Cajoes]

But raiding hermits is so much more cost and effort efficient than raiding established factions.

[LadyV]

Please read before criticizing. I'm suggesting capping the delta, not the raw numbers.

Oh do explain your vision of delta then.

Yeah, and with two characters you could teleport loot and regen food between your base and the target via Boston. Anyway, Salem is not representative of anything, because it never had a real playerbase. In a multi-faction world a faction that expends inordinate amount of time on raiding hermits in far-flung corners of the world would fall behind a faction that plays more efficiently.

Excuse me? Faction vs faction raids are rare. Sure they battle but actual raids on their actual villages are rare. The majority of faction raids are upon small hermits, groups, or abandoned settlements. Its much easier loot than losing several players against another matched faction.

[Bob_the_Cat]

But raiding hermits is so much more cost and effort efficient than raiding established factions.

Or you are me and travel around for 3 hours and dont find one active base, then just log out for a week. Nothing effort efficient about that. Something tells me that the east side of the world sucks.

[Potjeh]

My vision of delta? Delta is a thing that's already there, lrn2kamembert.

As for lack of raids, it's because brick walls grant invulnerability. Which is also the reason why majority of the big names of the old worlds have quit.

[Danno]

And what happens when people reach the 'limits', be it in UA or in quality, or whatever limit you set? You don't think that would make the population dwindle?
Placing restrictions is akin to having completed the game, there is nothing left to aim for, no more goals to reach and no reason to return in the future.

All types of players should be encouraged in game to give it variety, stability and the excitement of danger, no-one should be forced to adopt any particular style of play as this only limits the player base.

Limitations of any kind are not productive imo.

And what happens when people don't reach any limits, be it in UA or in quality or whatever stat you look at? They just keep grinding forever and we have this infinite stalemate where people are only willing to do PvP on the last day of the world. Placing no restrictions is akin to having completed the game, but not giving anyone the satisfaction of feeling they accomplished anything. There's nothing left to aim for, no more goals to reach, and no reason to return in the future because you've already done and seen it all, yet you're trapped doing the same routine everyday forever.

For example, let's play hide and seek with no restrictions. You count to 10 while I run away, get in my car, drive to the airport, and hop on a plane to another continent. If you find me, you win. If you don't find me, you have to keep looking. See, some games work better when there are restrictions. When you let players isolate themselves in a multiplayer game, there ceases to be any multiplayer aspect remaining, leaving us merely to grind on our own for no reason.

There is absolutely no excitement of danger in this game anymore because everyone's stats are too high and because everyone can hide behind brickwalls, which are virtually indestructable unless you organize a 24 hour attack with at least 10 strong people with you.
Even so, there's no incentive. If you're strong and organized well enough to raid a brickwall faction, chances are they have nothing that you want or need. The risk of losing your own people isn't worth it since it would take months to build them back up.


We need reasons to interact with our fellow players. As Potjeh suggests, different biomes could be plainly visible and have different advantages. For example, there could be a biome for every type of crop where one crop might grow faster and be able to reach q100 whereas every other crop would grow at normal rates and only reach q20 at the maximum. A faction could claim one of each biome, but it'd probably be more work than it's worth to transport the goods from all of them. Players would be encouraged to either trade for the crops they can't grow well or attack other villages and take what they want.

So, basically, people didn't have extremely different stats, but they still worked hard to get higher quality equipment for that edge in combat etc. For Haven it's also a plus that we actually work on the resources ourselves so there would be an active struggle for better quality materials and production tools.

This already happens in Haven. The factions with the high quality resources are the only ones able to produce superior equipment, which makes a big difference.

Limiting the skill system only serves to dumb down the game. Ive never been a fan of games that say you can not progress beyond this point. People who play longer and work at things should be ahead of others. This is not a a bad thing it is a rightful reward to dedication and work. And don't give the no lifer argument. Most thing in haven take little time to maintain once you are used to it. If anything we need more skills and options for which to spend our LP on.

Having more things to spend LP on is just just a quick fix. It might extend the gameplay for another week or two, then you'll run out of things to spend LP on again.

The best part of Haven's progression is when you make progress that you can see and feel.
Starving to death? You don't just click something and watch a number go up, you have to actually go to the river, find fish, catch fish, cook fish, and eat the fish to solve the problem.
Boars wandering into your settlement and killing your friends? You don't raise your "survival" stat to 236 to fix this, you have to chop down trees and build a wall around your settlement to keep unwanted creatures out.
Not enough room to store all your stuff? You want to keep your belongings private so your friends stop mooching? Again, you don't just raise a stat, you have to actually build the houses. This is true progress. It's a reward for something you worked for and it makes sense. Repeating tedious actions for months and being rewarded with invincibility against "newbs" is just stupid.

[Amanda44]

My vision of delta? Delta is a thing that's already there, lrn2kamembert.

I admit I wasn't sure what exactly you meant either, from what little I understand of delta in this context, it is still to do with variables of numbers which come into effect via advantages, even if they are just combat related you still talk about a limit to rising numbers, in UA, gear or w/e delta, you do also say those restrictions keep the population healthy, so my reply was formed around those issues, if I didn't properly understand what you were saying then I'd rather you explain it, it wasn't that I didn't read what you had said.

And what happens when people reach the 'limits', be it in UA or in quality, or whatever limit you set? You don't think that would make the population dwindle?
Placing restrictions is akin to having completed the game, there is nothing left to aim for, no more goals to reach and no reason to return in the future.

All types of players should be encouraged in game to give it variety, stability and the excitement of danger, no-one should be forced to adopt any particular style of play as this only limits the player base.

Limitations of any kind are not productive imo.

And what happens when people don't reach any limits, be it in UA or in quality or whatever stat you look at? They just keep grinding forever and we have this infinite stalemate where people are only willing to do PvP on the last day of the world. Placing no restrictions is akin to having completed the game, but not giving anyone the satisfaction of feeling they accomplished anything. There's nothing left to aim for, no more goals to reach, and no reason to return in the future because you've already done and seen it all, yet you're trapped doing the same routine everyday forever.

I'm afraid I disagree, I can only speak for myself, ofc, but I do get the satisfaction of feeling I've accomplished something in Haven, and this is in regard to rising numbers but it is also something you can see, in the growth of my village, the rising of quality and my character stats.

When people don't have limits they do continue to play as there will always be something to aim for, and a lot do come back world after world simply because there are no limits, therefore you can always improve on the previous efforts.

This is my 3rd world for some people it's their 7th ...... placing no restrictions means you can't complete the game, if those people had 'completed' the game, as in there really isn't anything else to aim for then they wouldn't come back, except for maybe the occasional nostalgia trip.

As for no danger or no interaction - why is congress full of raids, attacks and factions fighting then? The main factions may not raid each other, for the reasons you give I dare say, but they still fight each other and they still raid other places. That's not to say I don't think changes can be made in that area, I'm just pointing out there is still danger in the world and there is lots of player interaction on various levels, not all just with regard to combat.