Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[LadyV]

My vision of delta? Delta is a thing that's already there, lrn2kamembert.

So you want to remove bonus's from combat... No! If someone can acquire a better piece of equipment or weaponry that boosts them its fine. Quality is not the enemy. It simply means they have something better. Does it make your job more difficult? Maybe. But then you have to add in skills in knowing maneuvers or even creative combat dancing. Someone being better, having something better, or just knowing things better are not reasons to change a system. It means you need to work harder.

I hardly see the need to remove things that can create edges to a majority of people in most situations. The removal of bonus edges would create a combat system where only one person can combat you at a time, you cant run in combat unless they add a flee option, and its purely a skill vs skill system. Which still dumbs down the game and makes a might is right kind of situation. Morale, skill, and technology have always had a role in combat.

As for lack of raids, it's because brick walls grant invulnerability. Which is also the reason why majority of the big names of the old worlds have quit.

Walls invulnerable? That's very humorous. They do require more effort but I can assure you if a faction or another party wants to get to you they will. They have done so.

[Danno]

I'm afraid I disagree, I can only speak for myself, ofc, but I do get the satisfaction of feeling I've accomplished something in Haven, and this is in regard to rising numbers but it is also something you can see, in the growth of my village, the rising of quality and my character stats.

Well, if that's what you like, then I've just programmed a game that you'll love. http://cloudflash.net/danno/hafensim.swf

When people don't have limits they do continue to play as there will always be something to aim for, and a lot do come back world after world simply because there are no limits, therefore you can always improve on the previous efforts.

What's to improve? We come back world after world and do the same thing as before. People come back, but then they get bored and quit again when they see it's the same as before. Yes, we all have the option to 'play' infinitely as long as there are no caps, but only a handful of elites have the willpower to do that. Most other people just find it tedious and a waste of time.

placing no restrictions means you can't complete the game, if those people had 'completed' the game, as in there really isn't anything else to aim for then they wouldn't come back, except for maybe the occasional nostalgia trip.

What are we supposed to be aiming for again? The #1 competitive ranking? For new players, this is impossible because you've had a 1 year (or longer) head start in the quality race, not to mention several years of experience. So, new players aim for futility and old players aim for stagnation.

As for no danger or no interaction - why is congress full of raids, attacks and factions fighting then? The main factions may not raid each other, for the reasons you give I dare say, but they still fight each other and they still raid other places. That's not to say I don't think changes can be made in that area, I'm just pointing out there is still danger in the world and there is lots of player interaction on various levels, not all just with regard to combat.

Probably because experienced players like to hunt newbs for sport. They've got a great hunger for PvP, but they're too afraid to pick on someone their own size because they don't want to lose months of work.
As for congress, is it really congress? It doesn't seem that full of raids, attacks, and faction wars to me. Yes, it can be dangerous to be a newb when the stronger players can be so abusive, but that isn't really danger in the game, that's just experienced players being jerks. Once you advance to a certain point in the game (i.e. key alts, brickwall, etc.), that danger is gone. That is to say the people who are at the "end-game" are basically safe from all threats unless they make a mistake like leaving a gate unlocked or something.

There is some player interaction, but calling it "lots" is a stretch. The majority of players have little to no interaction with each other, or they might interact a little with one neighbour. When I logged on a few weeks ago and wandered around, I saw no active signs of life and didn't run into a single player. Even when I've found active settlements in the past, it was uncommon for me to actually run into anybody; most of the time, they'd be offline or hiding in a minehole or something.

not reasons to change a system. It means you need to work harder.

See, that "work harder" part is a problem. Why should we have to treat Haven as a fulltime job? It's a game, we should be having fun, not working to get promoted to Senior Manager so that we can get a higher salary than the newbies and boss them around.

Walls invulnerable? That's very humorous. They do require more effort but I can assure you if a faction or another party wants to get to you they will. They have done so.

We all know walls can be destroyed, but it takes a lot of resources, time, and coordination. If a powerful faction wants to bust down a brickwall, yes, they can. Average players busting down a brickwall? That has about a 1% chance of succeeding. They don't have a group of hardcore players at their disposal and their stats aren't high enough to compete 1 on 1. How many times has your brickwall been busted down by a minor faction? I'm guessing never, and there's a reason for that.

[Tonkyhonk]

There is some player interaction, but calling it "lots" is a stretch. The majority of players have little to no interaction with each other, or they might interact a little with one neighbour. When I logged on a few weeks ago and wandered around, I saw no active signs of life and didn't run into a single player. Even when I've found active settlements in the past, it was uncommon for me to actually run into anybody; most of the time, they'd be offline or hiding in a minehole or something.

oh cmon, do you seriously think all you can see on the forums are all there is? juicy dramas are not always shared in public unfortunately, not everyone is a story teller, nor has a wish to share a story that may embarrass some players. just because you dont have friends in the scene and dont hear about them doesnt mean they dont exist...

[Amanda44]

@ Danno - I'm sorry but I am not going to agree with all you say, it is possible to have another opinion and I do. I love Haven, I do play the whole world through and I am certainly not the only one. I do think that improvements could be made in various area's but capping isn't one of them.

I have periods when I get bored and am not as active but then I'll have an idea or think of something else I want to do in the village, or meet a newbie to help and it inspires me again and so far there has not come a time when I give it up altogether. Maybe if I was a purely combat player I may feel differently but there are so many things I enjoy about Haven. Your ridiculous little simulator doesn't come close, lol, there were no forests to forage in, no rivers to travel the world looking for goodies, no animals, no building or crafting, no planning and execution, no village to form and decorate and no people to talk to or run from. It was pretty dull in comparison tbh, lol.
Ofc, I get your point but it's not one I agree with, rising numbers are incredibly satisfying and an indication that you are achieving something but they don't just rise at the click of a button, some of us play the game to get those numbers up and it's the combination that brings rewards.

One more thing, all of us were new once, I started mid-way through a world, it's not about catching up for me as I've said countless times since I've been here, I accept that I am never going to be ruler of the world, lol, my game is personal to me, I have my own goals I want to achieve each world and I have improved with each. This world my goal was to find silver or gold, no luck so far, - next world I've decided to join a village and try that out but there is still enough in all area's of Haven to keep me interested and that is why I am still here and still playing. I have not found another game yet that gives me the same freedom, experience or satisfaction to keep me returning.

[LadyV]

not reasons to change a system. It means you need to work harder.

See, that "work harder" part is a problem. Why should we have to treat Haven as a fulltime job? It's a game, we should be having fun, not working to get promoted to Senior Manager so that we can get a higher salary than the newbies and boss them around.

If your going to quote at least keep it in context. Working harder at combat is different than playing the game. And it was you above that talked about survival being tougher with building walls and struggling to get fish and such. Your the one pushing for more work. So kindly don't lecture me on adding grind.

Haven is not a difficult game once you understand it and what needs to be done. Like anything the more you do the more you gain. But that's a personal choice now isn't it? In a free and open ended game you set your pace and goals. You define what path you take to get there. If you choose to do more to get ahead that is not a negative thing. Its a choice. If you feel your being left behind because someone else is putting more time into it then that is still your issue. It does not mean you have to dedicate more time it simply means they chose to.

Make the game what you will. If you can't have fun with the time you choose to spend on it then its not the games fault. It just means its not a good match for you. To many people have gotten used to games setting goals for them and they feel they are lost if they don't have them. Haven is not that type of game. You set your own goals and measure of success. You control what you do. The system is there but its up to you to decide what you want.

Im sorry if you find repetition boring. I do agree more content is needed. But artificially setting goals, no. Freedom to choose my own path is more valuable to me than some petty position, rank, or trophy saying you won or you achieved this. I know what I aimed for and can judge how well I did.

[Xcom]

Malcanis' Law is a term used in the EvE online game.

Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of ‘new players’, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.

Proposed cap would only help to generate overwhelming wealth in the hands of experienced players and create a massive alt spam fest. Factions would be able to go on hunting trips and care even less about loss. At the current state PvP is exciting as its a large gamble to put your best fighting character on the front line and risk losing it. Remove that gamble by placing a hard cap on character development and players will simply be forced to multi task character growth to have multiple fighter chars. A loss will simply be a minor setback and a common tactic.

Yes the game needs a form of diminishing return in character growth but it's to delicate and complicated to use a blunt hammer to the mechanic and place a hard cap on top. One thing that's for sure, any radical change will hamper any form of balanced system or outcome. The current system needs a twist to it as its bit to linear. Even if skills cost more the higher stats you reach for it's still not enough as some abused mechanics leads to extreme character stats. But a cap is far from the right direction, it would make the growth even more linear and stagnated, just look at ranged combat. A more complex solution have to be introduced to make it balanced and interesting. There are multiple options and direction to take on but I suspect whatever we discuss here wont matter a bit. From the sound of it the whole mechanic is being uprooted and a new system for character development looks to be on the way. We will have to see what JnL have in store.

What I think would improve the system would be an alteration on the current system introducing less linear approaches to end goals. The method to gain LP and the way to spending it should be bit more complex. Stats should be influencing each other in a complex weave to make smart development be a necessity. But one things for sure, a heavier diminishing return would favor everyone. But the fact any discussions about the endgame of Haven is being brought up is the proof that the game really doesn't have a endgame. Other then numen, feldspar farming, animal and crop cycling the game doesn't have much else in endgame content. If more endgame content would be introduced it would make character development easier to balance around then trying to go fix the character growth when a baseline of endgame is lacking.

Also I didn't include PvP as endgame content. PvP in all forms exists in the competitive nature of Haven. Its not a added content, its part of the foundation.

[Tonkyhonk]

forgotten to reply to this one.

Anyway, Salem is not representative of anything, because it never had a real playerbase.

im not going to talk about salem in here for now, but what is your definition of "a real playerbase"?
with all due respect, why do you have to dismiss small groups or individuals from your definition of players?

[Potjeh]

*sigh* What I'm talking about it how the ratio of the opponents' UA affects how much defence the attacks deplete, the formula being sqrt(UA(A)/UA(B)). Let's say that player B has 100 UA. If the player A has 200UA his attacks will deplete ~141% defence compared to what they'd deplete against an evenly-matched player, while player B's attacks will only deplete ~70% of the base, which means that player A is twice as effective in combat. It's a huge advantage, but still sort of possible to overcome if the stars align and player B is really good while player A is a total scrub. But what happens when player A has 1000UA? His attacks are ~316% effective, while player B's are only ~31% effective, for a tenfold advantage which makes the combat a total walkover. Player B has no chance at all, making player skill irrelevant and the game being all about pushing them numbers 24/7, which is work only fit for bots. If that's what you want in a game, may I suggest one that does this perfectly?

Now, based a metric shitton of sparring we (Pandemonium & allies) did in world 5, the window in which you can outplay an opponent who actually understands the combat system is roughly +/- 50% of your UA. So what I'm suggesting is that the effect of UA difference is restrained to this window. Ie, if you have 150 UA you would get the maximum possible advantage against a 100 UA opponent. But you would get no advantage against a 150 UA opponent, and you would get the maximum disadvantage (one that can still be overcome with superior player skill) against a 1000 UA opponent. If you want to maximise the advantage against that last guy, you would need to hit 1500 UA, but then he could go for 2250 UA etc., the point being that getting more UA is always useful, but it never becomes an overwhelming advantage. So yes, you can keep your precious number pushing as something meaningful without it reducing the game to a botting competition. A fortunate sideffect of this would also be making alternate builds viable, for example you could specialize in melee without getting ROFLstomped by someone who puts all his LP into UA.

But seriously, how is pushing numbers end-all be-all of the game experience, and there's nothing to do if you're ever finished with it? Even goddamn WoW manages to keep people playing after they've maxed out by providing things to do (ie PvP) that don't revolve around pushing numbers. If a themepark can do it, and a sandbox fails to, the sandbox is a shitty game and it's creators should reconsider their career choices. I don't believe this is the case with Haven, though, because there's plenty of opportunities for player interaction. The thing that gets in the way of that, though, is the infinite number pushing itself, which means that you're never really ready to interact with other players because they'll crush you like an ant thanks to thousands upon thousands of manhours spent doing (or botting) repetitive actions for the sake of pushing those numbers. This is something that normal people don't do, because normal people play games to have fun rather than nurse their egos with ersatz success because they can't get the real deal IRL. This in turns leads to H&H having one the shittiest communities in the MMO genre.

Walls invulnerable? That's very humorous. They do require more effort but I can assure you if a faction or another party wants to get to you they will. They have done so.

I have played H&H at top level (not that I had a top end character, but I was in a top end faction) W3-W5, and virtually every faction on faction raid that happened in that time, happened via bug abuse. Ramming a serious factions' walls is something that simply doesn't happen, it's impossibru.

[Xcom]

@Potjeh Thats great except for when a group of players with 2UA combat characters can take on practically a 1000 UA combat toon. They will be in a disadvantage except they are risking nothing when the opponent risks 6 months of stat grinding. Its basically going back to W6 camembertz.

[Potjeh]

It's simple enough to set up a cutoff point. For example, a set of reasonably expensive skills that you need to bring this cap down to the level I'm suggesting.