Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[Tonkyhonk]

Indeed, there are things going on in the game, too, but it seems like most of the time when a somewhat developed character is killed, they post a thread about their death. And most of the time, they died because a player with higher stats decided to bully them. Anyway, I was just told to look at Congress to see how it's full of threads about raids and faction wars. I did look and I see that there isn't much there.

basically, note that what you see in ICA is just a tip of an iceberg and as you know most icebergs are under the surface. same in real world even with media. moreover, i dont understand why you crossed out some threads as "not ICA".
i dont know how much you know to say "most of the time", but many players i know dont post on the forums, and many keep "important" events to themselves for different reasons - you generally dont want to show all your cards at hands to the public, do you?
also, afaik, most dont post everytime they kill, die, raid or get raided. and most importantly, politics is not all about pvp. you seem to have a very biased idea on ideal happenings in game, but maybe you *might* change your view if you can ever keep playing longer than you usually do...although your post shows why you dont last.

[Danno]

Thank you for the condescending comments, everyone. I'm sorry I'm not as pro as you.

you *might* change your view if you can ever keep playing longer than you usually do...although your post shows why you dont last.

I know I keep saying the game gets boring after 2 or 3 weeks, but that doesn't mean I've only played for 2 weeks as a filthy casual.

I have played this game for 1417 hours. One THOUSAND four hundred and seventeen HOURS. And that's not including the amount of time I've spent playing on alt accounts. Just because I'm not on board with the idea of infinitely grinding quality, it doesn't mean I'm a clueless newbie who has no idea how to play the game.

Just a year ago, this game had a regular player base of around what, 1000 players? Now it's dwindled down to being around 200-300 online at once, and half of those are key alts and bots. I'm not the only "scrub" who has a problem with this game, I'm just the only one who's bothered to stick around long enough to complain about it. Most of them do simply quit without saying a word. My 17 friends (and friends of friends) are evidence of this, and so is the declining population.

That's 18 people I personally know who played Haven & Hearth. How many of them are still playing Haven? Zero. How many are willing to play Haven again? Only one: myself. Out of the other 17, I'd say about 70% of them enjoyed Haven and played it for more than a week. They got bored of it, though, and the grinding, permadeath, and impossible quality competition left a bitter taste in everyone's mouths.

I crossed off some Congress topics because they're not related to war or politics, half of it is just newbs asking about villages or newbs geting killed for stealing from abandoned claims. This is because I was told to look at Congress to see how it's so full of wars and organized raids. I was told to believe that this game is full of PvP activity because there are lots of threads in Congress, but I proved that over half of those threads have pretty much nothing to do with PvP at all.

Reading all of this tells me this isn't quite the "game" for you Danno. Not that I don't agree with you on some points...

At the end of the day, I think people forget the original basis on which HnH was made. hint: it wasn't about making a game that reached large market acceptance

If anything, I think its current state is about as generic as MMOs get. There are hundreds of shitty MMOs with boring gameplay and tons of grinding. The games require no thought or effort, they only require your infinite time.

@Danno you seam to have a very twisted view of what this games about. You missed all the endgame markers and think its a hardcore action simulator. Haven in proper endgame have tons of politics and cold wars. Those numbers you talk about aren't there to infinitely grind, they generate a whole level of pvp battle before the actual fight. Neither are those brick walls meant to be rammed every other week. This game is to complex then an action thrill seeker.

Haven is obviously not any degree of action simulator, it's a snoozefest. The game is supposed to have some action in it, but instead there is none because everyone's too busy with their numbers. There's nothing complex about this bullshit, it's predictable and bland as hell.
1. Start or join a village with up to 10 hardcore players, triple brickwall your village, share specialized alts with your village (such as a 100% carpentry alt for making high q boards), and use key alts or keyless entry (teleportation) to keep your village safe.
2. Use bots or nolife the game to raise your quality and stats to ridiculous heights.
3. Repeat step 2.
Congratulations, you're succeeding at Haven & Hearth!

Also you can take this from me, even if you had twice the stats you would still die to a proper pvper. Stop complaining and try experience the game. Don't sit behind your brick wall and complain about numbers and stats being the reason you don't have the chance to do stuff. I know plenty people that pvp without stats. Most often they die but at least they experience and often come out the other end knowing whats what. Sadly you come to the forums and try experience the game sitting here reading what others do instead of logging in and getting a feel for the actual reality of what happens inside the game. I would advice to join a pvp faction and get a feel for how deep this games pvp is.

Hang on, let me dedicate 300 hours to building an acceptable PvP character so I can try out your advice.
I have experienced combat. I understand how to fight in this game. With pretty much the bare minimum stats, I've killed foxes, boars, and beaten up my friends with unarmed combat. And I wasn't wearing any armour, just some q20 nettle gear (yes, I know nettle gear is bad for combat because it lowers your agility). I'd like to test my skills against other players in the game, but why bother? Why should I pick a fight with someone who might have 1000 UA? My 100 UA would be no match for him and his high quality gear even if I'm much better at PvP. You don't have to act like a jackass just because I'm not willing to invest hundreds of hours in a character just to march into a suicidal fight.

What you also have gotten completely wrong is how joining late fucks you over. Best example is DIS, they took a long break from the game and came back lacking resources. Instead of complaining on the forums like you are they banded up and attacked a village with some of the higher quality animals and stole them. Now they have some of the highest animals on the server. Even if your not a top level faction you get plenty of chance to trade for seeds and animals to catch up.

That's great for people who have a group ready to play with them, but my 17 friends/associates have given up on H&H. The game is so tedious, slow paced, and lacking viable action that they've quit for good. Without 17 friends, it would be impossible for me to start up a village that can succeed in a raid. Also, you still have to grind the hell out of the game to catch up to that seed quality.

I'll repeat this one last time, haven is not about gunho running out ramming shit killing and raping people. If you think it is then your in the wrong game. If you think its about the stats then your still doing it wrong. This game have a whole subwar underneath all the real fights that spring up on ICA and some of those wars aren't even pvp related. Some of those wars are trade quality related, others are about stats and very small portion is about the actual takeovers and kills. Faction to faction wars on larger scales don't happen often because a whole lot of political sub communication happens between village leaders and member to avoid total conflict. Of course as a bystander your clueless about all this.

I know it isn't and that's what I'm complaining about. This game is way too boring. Yes, I admit I'm out of touch with what the powerful factions are doing. Frankly, it sounds too boring and like too much work for me to even want to know, though.

@Danno

you really need a village that supports your wanting to be a casual PvP champ - where others do the tedious work and feed you everything so you can push all the stats needed to have a easy go in combat ...

Spare the sarcasm. Out of my 17 friends who played with me, I was the hardest working out of anyone. I led the village, sacrificed my LP expanding my land claim over the whole village, solved disputes, looked after all the farming and cooking, looked after all the silkmoth shit alone, took care of skinning and butchering animals so we could have higher quality things, I found and crafted curiosities and shared them while my friends just used them without giving anything back, etc. I'm supporting casual play, but that doesn't mean I'm some casual shit scrub who would only play 30 minutes per day. I used to play this game all day long, 6 hours or longer straight with no breaks.
I've experienced this game's tedium in full force and I'm sick of it. My wife is sick of it. My friends are sick of it. My friends' friends are sick of it. What I suggest is that this game is changed a bit so that people can have fun playing instead of everyone being put to unsatisfying work like slaves.

@Danno Nothing I say is going to make an impact on you. I do hope you find fun. Best of luck!

Yeah, the guy who uses logical arguments and supporting evidence is such a lost cause. I'm so hopeless for having a life outside of a 2D grindfest MMO. Everyone who grinds in this game should permanently have their slider set to "tradition" since it's clear as day that none of you want to see any "change".



Okay, I get it. None of you will listen to me because I'm just a casual newbie. At least listen to Potjeh, he's a lot more credible than I am. He's been around longer and he's experienced this game's finer details in far more depth than I'd ever want to. Best of all, he has good ideas on how to make this game playable.
If you will take nothing from my posts, I hope that you will at least accept the truth that the infinite grinding has ruined this game for my 17 friends and also for myself. We didn't quit out of spite for anyone. Most of us enjoyed the game a lot when we first started. The sad truth is that we all came to the same conclusion on our own - that this game is too tedious and boring to be worth playing as it is. And it's not just us, hundreds of other players concluded the same thing, which is a damn shame.

[borka]

Thank you for the condescending comments, everyone. I'm sorry I'm not as pro as you.

I have played this game for 1417 hours. One THOUSAND four hundred and seventeen HOURS. And that's not including the amount of time I've spent playing on alt accounts.

Just a year ago, this game had a regular player base of around what, 1000 players? Now it's dwindled down to being around 200-300 online at once, and half of those are key alts and bots. - snipedysnippipip-

With an account created a bit before i created my first and with

One THOUSAND four hundred and seventeen HOURS

you should know that the average "regular" player base never ever has been 1000 but more like 300 - 500 ... each start of the world it rises and falls fast ...
and then there was a peak in W5 because of a YT which made the count even rise above 1500 - and there where times (W6 lag time) when i had about 25 playing besides me ... even at that times there was Pallibashing, tracking and stuff

You're putting soooo much efforts in writing but i didn't read a single sentence of constructive critique - just negative ranting ... and you wonder about sarcasm - come on ...

[LadyV]

@Danno I've never said you were a lost cause. I've never been condescending or disrespectful to you. I am quite simply tired of debating an issue you will not change you mind on or acknowledge others may have valid perspectives as well.

You say all of us who disagree with you are stuck at full tradition. May I suggest you are not listening? We all want changes. You just dont like the suggestions others have presented. Everyone who has talked to you has engaged the forums and had many suggestions and input on things to improve Haven. Please read them before blindly accusing.

I'm sorry to hear your friends in your village you referred to did not contribute back. It can be draining to be the only one fueling a group. I myself mined, smelted, farmed, made cheese, milked cows, foraged, hunted, made curios and even built and expanded Emerald City last world during the bad lag. I know all to well the drain it can place upon you. But may I point out the important point to you? Your friends didn't contribute, by your own admission. You chose to allow this and continued anyway.

Yes there is grind. But no one is forcing you to do it. As i said make the game what you will. Sure there is room to improve things. However coming to the forums with a grudge on your shoulder and yelling at those who disagree with you is not going to produce results. It will only divide you further from those around you.

May i suggest you ask your self what attracted you to Haven and what you do enjoy most. Then decide what you think would be the things to change. Put forth your suggestions. If they carry weight others will take them to heart. But don't expect it. Everyone has a different reason for playing Haven and it is not all pvp. I think you might be surprised how much goes on in this game that never goes beyond kin lists.

By all means play, have, and contribute but dont be the angry young man. It only turns people away.

[Potjeh]

I for one think danno is spot on. And I have played at the very top level and seen it's ugly face, which I'd dare guess you guys haven't. I've also played as a casual hermit and got my ass served to me by a player with inferior skill (I managed to trap him in a gate FFS) but much more grind invested in his character, so I know that playing casually is totally nonviable. Haven in it's current state is just a grinding competition, there's is absolutely nothing more to it.

[borka]

sure ...

senseless circle discussions ...

if you don't want to grind just don't do it ... if you're in for competion: sorry your own fault doing it in HnH

There isn't any game that isn't getting boring or stale after a while ... but good that HnH has a community that bothers the Devs with ideas and suggestions ... so there might be better camberts for those that want it, more types of buildings, decorations, tags, better village managment tools ... i guess everyone wants it ... but i don't think the grinders and greeders would go away ...

[Ninijutsu]

I'd like to reiterate the point that joining the world late doesn't make it any more difficult than joining it at the beginning stages, and that ANYBODY can start from absolute scratch all by themselves and have a reasonably statted warrior within 3-5 months (700-800 UA/MC). If you join a competent village, it wouldn't take you more than 2 months to get this (and the game is meant to be played with others imo).

Joining early only has the illusion of equality, those who are more dedicated or have larger numbers will always be significantly ahead early/mid world. Late world, you have access to all necessary resources through established villages or the trade forum, and diminishing returns + tradition sliding makes it even easier to catch up (also, huge titans with unreasonably buff stat pages never leave their walls).

Is grinding boring? Yes. But it is necessary, I believe.

Sorry if this post makes no sense in the current conversation, I only skimmed.

[wolf1000wolf]

I for one think danno is spot on. And I have played at the very top level and seen it's ugly face, which I'd dare guess you guys haven't. I've also played as a casual hermit and got my ass served to me by a player with inferior skill (I managed to trap him in a gate FFS) but much more grind invested in his character, so I know that playing casually is totally nonviable. Haven in it's current state is just a grinding competition, there's is absolutely nothing more to it.

Eh, my personal opinion is HnH is greatly flawed but sadly the only one of its type... Unless you can recommend me a non 3D mmorpg with a mutable world and decent building/crafting system? I haven't had much luck finding one...

[mernil2]

@Danno :

Yes, some groups will tend to prefer to play the game an economical way, industrialization and bots.
And this works to make a powerful faction.

But this isn't the only way, you can raid.

Just gather some friends, all build 2 alts specialized in combat (I'm not talking of 1k ua but 100 is fine to have fun).
Build a bw vault.
And drop some rams around palisades...

Hopefully some of them will still be here the day after and you'll be able to raid and loot the place.
Keep the loot and alts in vault until scents disappear (keep one of your own scents to know).

If your alt dies, use the second one and create a new, and voilà...

This way you don't have to participate in some "grind fest". Raids will provide your village lots of curiosities / resources and ARE fun.

[Dzedajus]

If you're struggling to get at least 100ua then your doing something wrong. Now it should be effortless to get at least 250ua.
And oh god, these circlejerks, guys pls.