Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[DDDsDD999]

What you faggots turned this thread into.

[Xcom]

I find it odd someone can say brick walls are op, factions cant get raided and the grind fest creates titan characters that are unbeatable. Why not log in and challenge the norm. You basically set forth a challenge that you can live up to. Instead its all wasted keystrokes on a forum trying to convince the developer to lower the challenge ratio so you can hop over a lower hoop. Shame on you.

[NOOBY93]

I think that a greater diminishing return would remove the incentive to grind your character way up, but leave it at an "ideal" spot everyone can reach in a couple of months.
Also tradition/change sucks. It's a permadeath game, why would you only "lose 25% stats" and what's even worse, gain a BUFF you can use for even MORE stats after you died? It's retarded. Contradicts with "permadeath" I think.
So yeah if people got to a point it doesn't really matter much to grind more, some would stop grinding, and some would keep grinding for that little advantage, and the game would rely on both skill and stats, but skill more, and without trad sliders it would be more punishing to lose that lower-level character.
Would fix all "but how can I fight them they have stats" questions ever asked. Just get to the ideal point of stats and go out and be skillful.

[Tonkyhonk]

you *might* change your view if you can ever keep playing longer than you usually do...although your post shows why you dont last.

I know I keep saying the game gets boring after 2 or 3 weeks, but that doesn't mean I've only played for 2 weeks as a filthy casual.

I have played this game for 1417 hours. One THOUSAND four hundred and seventeen HOURS. And that's not including the amount of time I've spent playing on alt accounts. Just because I'm not on board with the idea of infinitely grinding quality, it doesn't mean I'm a clueless newbie who has no idea how to play the game.

Danno, sorry that you do not remember me, youre making me a sad lil panda.
to be completely honest, i expected you to have spent more hours than that. either way, we all know that counting hours of in-game time does not measure our knowledge of the game, so it really doesnt speak much by itself. not that im saying youre a casual - i myself am a casual actually(though ive spent around 40 weeks on my main). i hope you know what i mean ;_;

just when you started and when i started, we only had like 200-300 online at once, besides, 300+ used to mean "crash" before. remember? people always come back to start playing when the world gets reset, nowadays i almost take it as a sort of ceremony everyone does at every start of the world, hoping "i may get lucky this world!" or something. after serveral weeks they start leaving for one reason or another and i find it just natural and i dont really feel like blaming the game for this. sure, its NOT entirely players fault, we havent got nothing much new implemented, devs not being around(their appearance on the forums is rather rare lately), and some unfixed bugs and so on. but that does not mean its entirely games fault either. not everyone concentrates on one game forever - people come and go, play different games with something new here and there, have real life issues, friends break up,... i know i dont need to list everything. as someone else has already said, 1000 players online is usually only for a short time at the very beginning of the world. cept for lagpool of w6, population is almost always around 300 to 500 i think, and that does not count alts. (loftar confirmed this before.) overall game population would probably be about 3 times of that considering timezone differences and not all play 24/7 except for botters.

im sorry to hear of your 17 friends not coming back, but you arent the only one. i dont find it was the games fault, but i rather take it that this wasnt the game for them (and you maybe) like it is for me. so, what can i say? i dont tell them its the games fault that they dont want to come back. all i can say is sorry guys and move on and make new friends here. i dont expect my friends to play this game forever; they all love trying new stuff, and this game doesnt offer us new stuff for the time being.

I crossed off some Congress topics because they're not related to war or politics, half of it is just newbs asking about villages or newbs geting killed for stealing from abandoned claims.

now, look, those threads are also congress topics. dont discriminate them just because they didnt entertain you or protagonists were "just newbs". those do have potentials of making dramas, but many people dont expand it that way. asking about villages shows they are trying to interact, but they dont have to show their interactions to the public, do they? ofc people prefer talking in private unless either or both sides have some malicious intentions or they are fighting/arguing and couldnt solve their issue themselves. new players getting killed COULD lead to a major fight too if the involved so wish or 3rd party wants to get involved.
you got upset that you thought we all were accusing you of being a noob, yet you accuse those threads of being noob and not ICA worth? cmon, i expected you better than that. noob or vet, congress is congress. top faction or just some random hermits, politics is politics. imo, its just that some small conflicts or inquiries (to be major/minor conflicts or peaceful negotiations or compromises in the future, or perhaps to be ignored for inactivities or lack of interests) do not look flamboyant to you and that is all.

finally, i thought you knew "sparring" exists in this game when you want to fight someone without losing your char.
i mean, i rather find the beauty that you give a second thought before going for pvp in this game that you may lose most (not all) of your work. if you dont want to take others work away or lose yours by pvp, then you have a choice; sparring.

[GrapefruitV]

Danno, why do you keep talking about numbers like it is something bad and even being ironic about those who don't mind them?
Most of the games in the world are based on numbers. It's either getting highest/lowest numbers or getting a certain one faster than others. And I'm not talking about MMOs now, I mean literally ALL existing games (card games, sport games, table games...). Numbers itself is not a value, it is just a marker to compare with other players to find out if you're winning or loosing. It's not necessarily represented by digits, but that scheme is always there, the point is to enjoy the process of getting numbers and overcome your competitors by showing better skills. In HnH you can compete in stats, quality, number of kills, size of the village, amount of gold you paved, etc., since it is a sandbox you can choose your own field of competition, stay within competition at particular level of development or even choose to stay away from it completely. Getting on top in this game requires math skills, social skills, PR skills, pvp skills, organization skills, sometimes coding skills and the best part you can mix those skills to succeed in any way, sometimes only one is enough. If showing all that is a pure grindfest looking like replanting one carrot over and over again to you, others are right and you haven't experienced this game enough. You basically are suggesting to remove a huge part of the game without adding anything to replace it, that not only won't make players to stay longer, that will make them quit faster, if now average hearthling gets bored in 2-3 months, if endless development will be removed, people will quit in 3-4 weeks, we already saw that with Salem, cap on "quality" wasn't the main issue with it, but people were getting bored much faster after they build everything there is to build and a lot of people were saying they reached everything there is. Endless content is impossible and endless numbers is a great thing to replace it. I don't want to write another long post about joining late not being an issue, did that too many times in the past, besides Xcom already did that one page ago, I'll just say once again all there is to change to make it perfect is making crops and animals quality formulas similar to trees, because now both depends on time too much (and maybe some combat changes as Potjeh suggested, but I'm not experienced in this area, so I won't get into this discussion).

[Oddity]

I for one think danno is spot on. And I have played at the very top level and seen it's ugly face, which I'd dare guess you guys haven't. I've also played as a casual hermit and got my ass served to me by a player with inferior skill (I managed to trap him in a gate FFS) but much more grind invested in his character, so I know that playing casually is totally nonviable. Haven in it's current state is just a grinding competition, there's is absolutely nothing more to it.

Eh, my personal opinion is HnH is greatly flawed but sadly the only one of its type... Unless you can recommend me a non 3D mmorpg with a mutable world and decent building/crafting system? I haven't had much luck finding one...

God, I wish there was another Haven. But there really isn't.

This one was in development by an H&H player for a long time: http://origin-world.com/

Not sure what its current status is, but it was fun when we got to play in the alpha.

[Geido]

Balrum http://balconyteam.com/

[Danno]

You're putting soooo much efforts in writing but i didn't read a single sentence of constructive critique - just negative ranting ... and you wonder about sarcasm - come on ...

The exact numbers are irrelevant, my main point is just that lots of people have joined and quit. This game's population should be increasing, not staying about the same and not decreasing. I have proof that most people who try the game or play for a few weeks quit.
1. There are numerous hearthfires all over the world in random places. These are the people who quit because they didn't realize they need a wiki to play the game or they found the game to be too slow paced.
2. There are numerous individual houses and 3x3 paved plots of land (where houses used to be and decayed) all over the world. These are the people who played for a few days and understood the basics of how to play, but quit because it was too tedious to do anything (e.g. 100 boards/100 boughs/200 logs for a timber house is like, an hour's worth of work or more, which is absurd in a game).
3. There are somewhat more elaborate dwellings, such as claimed caves with pavement and a house out front, but no palisade, or claims with a couple houses and a farm, but no palisade. These people played for around 2 weeks before getting bored and quitting.
4. There are palisaded settlements with decayed farmlands, showing they've been gone a long time. They played for around 3-5 weeks before quitting because they ran out of fun things to do.
5. There are palisaded villages with an idol and decayed farmlands. They played for around 5-10 weeks before feeling it was pointless to continue.
6. Lastly, there are abandoned brickwall settlements and villages, which are fairly rare. The reason they're rare is because most players don't have the patience to grind that long.

How do we solve this problem? How do we keep the players interested enough to keep them playing? We've tried infinite grinding and it's evident that doesn't work. It keeps the hardcore players interested, but it drives most others away. I offered constructive criticism already, but it was dismissed in favour of infinite grinding. Grinding is not content, it is just filler. The only content that makes sense in an MMO, especially one of Haven's nature, is to make player interaction and PvP more viable, more interesting, and more rewarding. This way, the players will keep each other occupied, as they should.

May I suggest you are not listening? We all want changes. You just dont like the suggestions others have presented.

I am listening and I hear you guys saying that you like the unlimited "character progression". You like that the game doesn't stop you from playing forever and ever and ever. You can technically always improve your village and character, which gives you a sense of satisfaction.
Newbs do not deserve to PvP or be capable of defending themselves because they did not put in the same work that you did. However, you believe they are fully capable of catching up to established factions if they work hard enough.
As for changes to the game, you guys want more content, obviously. Wolves, hawks, horses, proper stockpiling, harvesting large areas at once instead of harvesting 1 tile at a time, bridges, stone walls and houses, more things to build, adjustments to quality formulas, increased softcaps, etc. New content and helpful features are always good, I like these things, but they won't solve this game's core problem - the grinding that drives players away. You are not looking for changes, you're looking for additions.

But may I point out the important point to you? Your friends didn't contribute, by your own admission. You chose to allow this and continued anyway.

They did help to an extent, but I was doing the majority of the work. I also took care of the livestock and lots of other things. Anyway, my point there was just that I know what it means to grind and do chores in this game since people seem to be thinking I only played for a week and I'm complaining about things I know nothing about.

what attracted you to Haven and what you do enjoy most. Then decide what you think would be the things to change. Put forth your suggestions. If they carry weight others will take them to heart. But don't expect it. Everyone has a different reason for playing Haven and it is not all pvp.

For obvious reasons, the grind and permadeath make people too afraid to interact with each other. I enjoy working together with others to build something we can call our own, I enjoy exploring/foraging, and I enjoy the game's combat system. 17 friends quit because of grinding, exploring is less exciting since I only ever come across abandoned settlements instead of active players, and the combat is ruined by players having outrageous advantages from stats. All of these problems stem from the unlimited grinding, which is why I keep attacking it.

ANYBODY can start from absolute scratch all by themselves and have a reasonably statted warrior within 3-5 months (700-800 UA/MC). If you join a competent village, it wouldn't take you more than 2 months to get this (and the game is meant to be played with others imo).

Why is it that players have to invest a minimum of 2 months before they can compete? Sheesh, most people uninstall a game if the tutorial is longer than 5 minutes, or they quit an online game room if the players don't ready up within 20 seconds. Gamers want to play the game, not watch the time go by.

If you're struggling to get at least 100ua then your doing something wrong. Now it should be effortless to get at least 250ua.
And oh god, these circlejerks, guys pls.

Not everyone has a PhD in Haven. Many players study the wiki to learn the basics or learn what per*exp they need to see certain things, but a lot of them don't start the game in large factions with pearl gear, high quality tea, and high quality curiosities at their disposal. They also don't memorize all the game's formulas and work as efficiently as robots. While 250 UA may be effortless for you, it would take months for a new player starting from scratch.

I find it odd someone can say brick walls are op, factions cant get raided and the grind fest creates titan characters that are unbeatable. Why not log in and challenge the norm. You basically set forth a challenge that you can live up to. Instead its all wasted keystrokes on a forum trying to convince the developer to lower the challenge ratio so you can hop over a lower hoop. Shame on you.

First off, grinding is not a challenge, it is something even a monkey can do. It requires only one thing: time.
Second, I'm not willing to waste hundreds of hours building a character to throw away just to prove to you that it's a futile effort. I own other games that are a lot more satisfying to play, and I could beat them in the time it would take to grind up one character in this game. Those other games have an interesting storyline, challenging bosses, puzzling dungeons, and possibly online multiplayer for even more fun. Haven could be just as good and worthwhile if the multiplayer part was done right, but it isn't.
Third, I'm proposing the challenge in this game is increased. You're the one who wants the challenge decreased - you want to be invulnerable to newbs, which is probably at least half of the game's population, and you want to have access to all the top resources in the game all at once with no drawbacks.

Danno, sorry that you do not remember me, youre making me a sad lil panda.
to be completely honest, i expected you to have spent more hours than that. either way, we all know that counting hours of in-game time does not measure our knowledge of the game, so it really doesnt speak much by itself. not that im saying youre a casual - i myself am a casual actually(though ive spent around 40 weeks on my main). i hope you know what i mean ;_;

Of course I remember you, you were one of the best parts of Haven to me in whichever world we communicated in. It was a lot of fun and a great learning experience to talk to other people in Japanese, and I love that Haven has one worldwide server to make that all possible. Still, I strongly disagree with the infinite grinding aspect of this game. No hard feelings, I have nothing personal against you or anyone else here.

Some people come and go, but I think a lot less people would go if there was something more interesting to keep them here. Something better than grinding. The players should be brought together, not isolated and set to work with pushing up their numbers.

now, look, those threads are also congress topics. dont discriminate them just because they didnt entertain you or protagonists were "just newbs".
noob or vet, congress is congress. top faction or just some random hermits, politics is politics.

It's good that they're asking about the villages, gathering information is another one of Haven's interesting aspects. Their threads aren't worthless, I'm just pointing out they have nothing to do with wars and such. Asking for a village to join belongs in Dwarves & Thieves, not Congress. Sometimes a newb gets help when they're unfairly killed, but a lot of the time they're just told to deal with it since that's how the game is. Threads like that usually don't get too political.

finally, i thought you knew "sparring" exists in this game when you want to fight someone without losing your char.
i mean, i rather find the beauty that you give a second thought before going for pvp in this game that you may lose most (not all) of your work. if you dont want to take others work away or lose yours by pvp, then you have a choice; sparring.

I know, and I did spar with my friends when they played. I also like that there's something at risk in PvP, but I think there's too much at risk. I don't want to lose hundreds of hours of work over one fight, and I think it's reasonable to not want to lose all that. They can have my pearls, curiosities, metal, or food, but losing hundreds of hours of work on a character is too much.
Sparring doesn't work for raids, they'd probably just try to kill you. If I was able to PvP and stand a chance, I'd just knock them out and steal a few things from their home. I think we should be able to have real fights and wars without anyone losing hundreds of hours of work over a short fight.

Danno, why do you keep talking about numbers like it is something bad?
Most of the games in the world are based on numbers. It's either getting highest/lowest numbers or getting a certain one faster than others. And I'm not talking about MMOs now, I mean literally ALL existing games

Yes, numbers are a part of pretty much every existing game. The problem with Haven is that the numbers are the game itself. Instead of doing anything that requires thought or effort, we focus our time on making numbers go up. A good game should let you play and have fun without even thinking about the numbers. When you program a game, there are lots of numbers and variables involved. However, the player doesn't even see half of them. The player sees and experiences a real game. Some games try to hide the numbers so you can just focus more on the game, such as health bars that don't have a numerical value showing.

[Ninijutsu]

ANYBODY can start from absolute scratch all by themselves and have a reasonably statted warrior within 3-5 months (700-800 UA/MC). If you join a competent village, it wouldn't take you more than 2 months to get this (and the game is meant to be played with others imo).

Why is it that players have to invest a minimum of 2 months before they can compete? Sheesh, most people uninstall a game if the tutorial is longer than 5 minutes, or they quit an online game room if the players don't ready up within 20 seconds. Gamers want to play the game, not watch the time go by.

Because it's an MMO, you have to invest time and grind and progress. If you want a game where you can jump in and have fun instantly, there are other types of games for that. If you are an instant gratification low attention-span gamer then you shouldn't be playing World of Warcraft, you should be playing CoD.

[Anon9k]

ANYBODY can start from absolute scratch all by themselves and have a reasonably statted warrior within 3-5 months (700-800 UA/MC). If you join a competent village, it wouldn't take you more than 2 months to get this (and the game is meant to be played with others imo).

Why is it that players have to invest a minimum of 2 months before they can compete? Sheesh, most people uninstall a game if the tutorial is longer than 5 minutes, or they quit an online game room if the players don't ready up within 20 seconds. Gamers want to play the game, not watch the time go by.

That's not a secret that dota and cod retards wants to get right into the competition from first seconds and can't invest themselves in timetaking games, but you miss the general point (not your fault, 60% of players do the same): the process of getting the numbers is the main competition, not the running and ganking part. Building infrastructure takes time, effort and needs you to be a bit good at this. If you can't or don't want to do this then go back to cod/dota/whatever.