Salem Goes Open Beta

[TeckXKnight]

I think a smarter AI would solve a lot of problems. Everyone has been saying this since World 2 though, so, clearly it will be implemented soon(tm)

[dra6o0n]

bitza makes many good points, and I will take them all into account when I create H&H II

Whoa dude, not so fast now, you still need to figure out the language you want to code in, whether or not you are using a game engine, whether or not you want a good library to develop from, and most importantly, if you have the time and budget to work on it for the next 2 years.

/Sarcasm... Or is it?

[Rhiannon]

this is h&h, not minecraft, not farmville, not salem. it's not meant to be a happy romp through the woods, it's meant to be dangerous specifically for new characters - you shouldn't be able to kill a bear after 2 days on a new char. the animal AI tends to mess with the pacing of the game a bit too as it becomes way too easy to kill animals - once you have a boat and sling and some marksman there's really not much stopping you from building a village idol. (incidentally i think vidol needs more expensive materials as well!)

perhaps it's not my viewpoint that's immature and intellectually challenged, but yours. your argument here boils down to bascally "animals with murder are too hard and they need to be removed and everyone who disagrees with me is a moron" - this is literally what you said in your response to me.

If you want a game for a super small group of your friends and never have nothing more, then sure, you can implement your tooth and nail super "Only one way to succeed" game. You are the actual one, considering your mechanic layouts here, who wishes the game to be so restictive that only your way of uber-domination will ever reach any level of success. As J&L are learning right now in their little dallience with an actual gaming BUSINESS model. Your ideas would never go over in even a smallish mass market way with enough people to bring any developmental return in a game. Which = a game always being nothing BUT a small little laggy game in someone's basement or dormroom to be played amongst their friends. So you don't like any other kind of sandbox player, ya dont like carebears and farmers and crafters and the multitudes of players who can find JUST as much enjoyment in H&H doing those things as you do in your uber "deathwoods frolic". BALANCE of some sort between the 2 extremes is always the goal of any game in trying to make it both profitable and worth the effort. It's the idea of making sure a game can please both sides that ends with actual success. You seem to want to make it so hard that NO casual player or any other type of player besides "war griefers" or "war griefer slaves" would ever find a place here. It would no longer be a sandbox if "Being just like you" or "serving under you" was the only way to find a place in the game. There are LOTS of games who solved THAT particular financial//developemental problem by simply making 2 servers instead of 1. If that is, those like you must have it so extreme.

In the end, i believe making the game financially supportable for J&L would be best to urge them to continue developing H&H yes? Do you really think making some uber extreme game as you have defined would do that? Considering that "Carebears", intellecutal crafters, and causual multi-gamers outnumber extreme uber mono-gamers like 1000 to 1?

[Oddity]

Please learn to express yourself in a less annoying manner.

[Tonkyhonk]

In the end, i believe making the game financially supportable for J&L would be best to urge them to continue developing H&H yes? Do you really think making some uber extreme game as you have defined would do that? Considering that "Carebears", intellecutal crafters, and causual multi-gamers outnumber extreme uber mono-gamers like 1000 to 1?

it is not only bitza or goons but jorb and loftar themselves who want to let bears swim and trolls throw dead bodies or rocks to players. they make what they themselves want to play (or at least what jorb wants to play and how loftar wants to code), and not trying to please you in general. besides, financial support is coming from salem. haven is independent and totally their own baby so they can do whatever they like and dont bother with what others say. *tumbleweeds rolling*

in other words, this game(haven) is for a uber extreme small group of seatribe, a.k.a. jorb and loftar, and they invite us all in cause they need meat. fuck mass market.

QQ moar.

[bitza]

having played as both a "war griefer" and a "casual" i can say that swimming bears will hurt the first group much more than the second. it's not difficult to avoid a bear if you're paying attention, especially with a minimap radar. but if they could swim/better AI, killing one would no longer be a trivial task and it would set back the early-world war machines and one of the major quality jumps (your first bear saw), as well as making vidols much more harder to come by (harder to wage territory wars or build a proper hearth vault, for instance)

these are the things that we should be looking at when we talk about BALANCE. how to hamstring the uber-war-machine villages. i don't think this should be too hard to understand? boat slinging is not good gameplay. village idols on day 2 are not good gameplay. the animal AI is terrible and turns hunting from a dangerous and rewarding activity to an exercise in patience as you chip rocks and sit at the shore (way sooner than you should be able to kill a bear in the first place).

if village idols were only used for their original intent, i would say it's fine the way it is now. but, look at this horseshit:


literally anyone could build something like this. but, an indestructible hv is not possible without an idol.

So you don't like any other kind of sandbox player, ya dont like carebears and farmers and crafters and the multitudes of players who can find JUST as much enjoyment in H&H doing those things as you do in your uber "deathwoods frolic".

i am quite certain that i've done just as much farming and crafting and carebearing as you. do not bring personal preferences for playstyle and ad-hominem insults into this discussion just because you have no real leg to stand on. if i wanted to do the same thing, i could judge that by all of your "wahh too much blood" posts that you've never participated in any real pvp or raiding. do you really think you are one who is qualified to talk about BALANCE when you refuse to participate in half the game, and condemn anyone who does?

Considering that "Carebears", intellecutal crafters, and causual multi-gamers outnumber extreme uber mono-gamers like 1000 to 1?

maybe true for other games, but certainly not here.

Please learn to express yourself in a less annoying manner.

also, this

[Amanda44]

this is h&h, not minecraft, not farmville, not salem. it's not meant to be a happy romp through the woods, it's meant to be dangerous specifically for new characters - you shouldn't be able to kill a bear after 2 days on a new char. the animal AI tends to mess with the pacing of the game a bit too as it becomes way too easy to kill animals - once you have a boat and sling and some marksman there's really not much stopping you from building a village idol. (incidentally i think vidol needs more expensive materials as well!)

perhaps it's not my viewpoint that's immature and intellectually challenged, but yours. your argument here boils down to bascally "animals with murder are too hard and they need to be removed and everyone who disagrees with me is a moron" - this is literally what you said in your response to me.

If you want a game for a super small group of your friends and never have nothing more, then sure, you can implement your tooth and nail super "Only one way to succeed" game. You are the actual one, considering your mechanic layouts here, who wishes the game to be so restictive that only your way of uber-domination will ever reach any level of success. As J&L are learning right now in their little dallience with an actual gaming BUSINESS model. Your ideas would never go over in even a smallish mass market way with enough people to bring any developmental return in a game. Which = a game always being nothing BUT a small little laggy game in someone's basement or dormroom to be played amongst their friends. So you don't like any other kind of sandbox player, ya dont like carebears and farmers and crafters and the multitudes of players who can find JUST as much enjoyment in H&H doing those things as you do in your uber "deathwoods frolic". BALANCE of some sort between the 2 extremes is always the goal of any game in trying to make it both profitable and worth the effort. It's the idea of making sure a game can please both sides that ends with actual success. You seem to want to make it so hard that NO casual player or any other type of player besides "war griefers" or "war griefer slaves" would ever find a place here. It would no longer be a sandbox if "Being just like you" or "serving under you" was the only way to find a place in the game. There are LOTS of games who solved THAT particular financial//developemental problem by simply making 2 servers instead of 1. If that is, those like you must have it so extreme.

In the end, i believe making the game financially supportable for J&L would be best to urge them to continue developing H&H yes? Do you really think making some uber extreme game as you have defined would do that? Considering that "Carebears", intellecutal crafters, and causual multi-gamers outnumber extreme uber mono-gamers like 1000 to 1?

I am probably what people in general would consider a 'carebear', I enjoy the crafting, foraging, farming and the construction of my village in preference to the combat side or 'griefing', BUT, I'm certainly not against these elements in the game, which is why I play hnh, it adds danger and excitement. I leave the village walls regularly on my main, I have been raided, attacked and nearly died to animals and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I'm also not against swimming bears, they do swim afterall and I agree that bears are far too easy to kill. This does not suddenly turn me into an 'uber war griefer', lol, you are being far too extreme in your interpretation of bitza's preferences. I've never played farmville - it sounds like a childrens game - but if you don't like the pvp aspect or any form of excitement from danger then why do you choose hnh over other games, like the one mentioned, it makes little sense to complain about these things when that is what the game consists of in equal measures to the crafting side.

[borka]

oh Amanda - "go play Farmville" is not nice

Well was thinking a lot about this discussion in this thread and came to the conclusion that swimming bears would be worth a try. (And be it just to give more challenges to Vets )
Better AI?!? yes pls

Also Tonky brought in the best argument: when Jorb and Loftar want it - so be it.

But i am still not convinced that it would bring more or better balance or even "hamstring the uber-war-machine villages".
Their main factor for success is being well organized and have a good number of very active members besides botting and some very experienced players that know most ways of exploiting. They'll even will find a way to handle that swimming bears "problem" very fast ... if they set up a vidol in 2 days or 7 days doesn't make a big difference for them i guess...

The HV problem i think doesn't have it's reason in vidols but making it unbreakable by missusing statues (and only because everyone knew that you could break the rules in this world as there was no risk in getting nuked because "Jorbs Fist" is busy somewhere else).

How many unbreakable HVs did we had this world in the first 3 month?

[Tonopah]

Flagging foraged curios as no-drop / no-trade solves some of the alt army farming problems. Bears with swim ability, okay. Update P-claim and V-idol maintenance/requirements and remove indestructible statues.

[borka]

-snip-Update P-claim and V-idol maintenance/requirements -snip-

yes as this is prolly a bigger issue than swimming bears