Is anyone "not" using a bot?

[Tonkyhonk]

u rage the worst it seems though. since you feel the need to attack others for playing this game.

if you didnt notice, im not attacking others for "playing" this game, but for "botting" this game and encouraging botting

[Eemerald]

u rage the worst it seems though. since you feel the need to attack others for playing this game.

if you didnt notice, im not attacking others for "playing" this game, but for "botting" this game and encouraging botting

ofcourse. that's all it is:)
I'm glad we bring you such joy tonky so u have reason to have a go at us;)
last world no bots yet you always shower EC and me with such love

[Tonkyhonk]

i just dont switch my values to compromise with the majority.

[Eemerald]

i just dont switch my values to compromise with the majority.

have a goodnight Tonky.

[Lord_of_War]

Calm the hell down so we can have a rational discussion. As far as im concerned this has devolved into a witch hunt. Whether or not people use bots is irrelevant to the the real concerns of whether it has an effect on the game as a whole and whether something should be done and what that something should be.

[Xcom]

Here is for Tonky the moronski and for all the others who lean one way or the other, a brief analysis as you can call it.

People primarily hate bots as it can give advantages to some and not others. The issue is that noone really have made any analyses in actuality where bots really do affect havens core so when discussions like this one comes along people flunk strong words forth and back without having a clue what the hell they are talking about. A simple brief explanation where bots are strongest and where they are particularly week.

Botters primary goal is to create a very unique and specific setup and repeat this particular setup over and over outputting products like a machine. They are also mostly unstable and can easily break just by having the smallest unforeseen variable be introduced into the whole system. The whole mechanic behind creating bots are to find a particularly repetitive system and exploit it, specially if this system is as in layman's term easy to bot.

So where in haven are these bots particularly easy to attach. Hunger mechanics, mining, farming and as of late foraging. As bots become more and more advanced more options open up so you can put into order something more and more chaotic. Foraging was previously to chaotic to automate but as coders find new ways to find routines and repetitive mechanics they start to build bots around these linear mechanics to abuse the system. Not any random bloke can make a foraging bot. Only someone you can call a master coder or a very dedicated player can ever achieve such a goal. Its as much an art and a science to build a bot advanced enough to forage in a such a stable manner to output products without hiccups or issues. If anyone could do it we would see lots more players auto forage and there would be no unfair advantage as many like to call it. But to even achieve this goal is in itself a reward on its own and it is also the reason why some like to script.

But then we come to the ethical parts of botting. Why bots are so bad and all that jazz. A sandbox game like haven can be affected by bots but unlike what alot of players like to think it unforchantly not where you think the disadvantage starts and ends. Everyones looking the wrong way because everyone really are clueless about what creates disadvantages as people think its in the resource collecting that bots are particularly harmful. Putting ethical dilemmas aside and really looking at it logically its shows that foraging really doesn't affect gameplay as much as people like to think it does. Take my words as I'm telling you this out of experience knowing exactly what coding and scripting is about. Foraging is not the problem of botting and it never was. The same amount of curios and more can be gotten through trade or from manual foraging. You might be behind but your never going to compete with players that login 30+ hours a week. Regardless of how much you bot you wont ever win against active players.

The issues are not in curios but in the hunger mechanics. People can bulk stockpile foods and hunger bot them into there characters like machines and create massive disadvantages over regular characters. Foraging bots cant ever be abused other then giving curio bot owners easier access to some types of curios and ease that process slightly. But the true advantage in coding and scripting is NOT BOTS!! I cant stress this enough other then repeat this over and over 100s of times. Policing scripting and preventing people from using scripts actually can be more destructive in the long run and this is the reason as you will see that bots collecting curios or grinding hunger is not the true problems of this game.

THIS IS WHY SCRIPTING SHOULD NOT BE POLICED

This is a gif of Lady Goo getting stabbed. But that's not what is interesting as its very hard to spot for an untrained eye. What is important to note is that this gif is old. I'm unsure how old it is but most likely its as old as world 6. The other very important thing to note is the mouse cursor of the attacker. You can clearly see that for a blink of a second the cursor turns to a sword then the attacker stabs Goo as she steps out of the water. You can obviously see that he is not sniping Goo to preform the attack. Neither is he clicking the portrait in the upper right corner of his screen. What he is preforming is, now in months later discovered after implementing it into a public client, a double tap attack. What that means is that he preforms an attack action only custom clients are privileged to. That means an advantage in PvP that regular Jo doesn't have access to. God knows how long people have had this advantage over others in haven and wiped people in pvp using this small yet significant feature. This small and undetectable feature is quite impossible to monitor and you can ask loftar if you ever get the chance to. Loftar would need to spend months of code to attach special monitoring mechanics behind other mechanics to find these small anomalys made by individual clients and then kicked anyone using them. Add that other features as auto aggro, instant hearth (later plugged by loftar in world 6), auto drinking and many more features also have existed and only recently are starting to become public for the regular people to use.

So why is this so significant and why is it such a big deal. That might not sound big, a small additional feature to give people advantage in pvp. You might think that curios might give a bigger advantage but your wrong as curios might just give you a bragging element on the forums while direct pvp advantage actually puts a HUGE advantage in the practical manner and wipes your ass off the map.

But thats not even where things end. Scripters that have been around longer have an easier way to create undetectable features and share with other scripters in secret channels ways to implement even more significant features to give even more advantage to elite players. Making scripting out walled will create such a major gap between regular Jo and elite players that will make Jo look like a neanderthal trying to stand up on two while elite players swim around him like sharks picking him apart.

Now you can go on nagging that bots are so bad left and right while in fact the true and significant problems of scripting are the hidden features of private custom clients. Bots wont give anyone any advantage other the uniquely the hunger system. But that's been stated over and over how badly its been implemented so its a mute discussion as haven 2.0 wont even have the same hunger mechanics. Get this through your thick skulls, bots don't give any significant advantages as custom clients do. The economy of haven is NOT affected by curio bots. Traders have not changed there prices sense W6 so the economy is not affected. Neither do they somehow magically make less active players gain advantages over more active ones.

At the end of the day you living in your small camp you are as much affected by bots as how much you use them on your own. Bots don't prevent you from playing this game at all. PvP custom clients do in fact impact your gameplay on the other hand.

[Astarisk]

Calm the hell down so we can have a rational discussion. As far as im concerned this has devolved into a witch hunt. Whether or not people use bots is irrelevant to the the real concerns of whether it has an effect on the game as a whole and whether something should be done and what that something should be.

Does it have an effect...Yes, can something be done at this point? Na, this world is going down burning. Pretty much just got to wait on Hafen.

Just look towards the market a bit. I could easily bring in hundreds of pearls, the higher end items are insanely over priced. Their prices havent dropped even though the world is this far in, people are paying insane amounts for items. It makes these goods just so far unobtainable. I've had more pearls this world than I've had all w3-w6. (And I've done absolutely no pearl gathering myself, and hardly even trade). Likewise I have cupboards of bluebells, I havent foraged a swamp since early september...


----
To say that it takes a master coder, or dedicated player to make such bots such as foraging is just complete fucking bullshit. It took less than a day, even as low as a few hours to get a fully functional foraging bot made on our end. Just endless excuses to justify making the game more toxic than it needs to be. All it is becoming is a circle jerk of who can make the best shit with as little effort as possible. There is no need to sugar coat this at all.

[Eemerald]

Calm the hell down so we can have a rational discussion. As far as im concerned this has devolved into a witch hunt. Whether or not people use bots is irrelevant to the the real concerns of whether it has an effect on the game as a whole and whether something should be done and what that something should be.

Does it have an effect...Yes, can something be done at this point? Na, this world is going down burning. Pretty much just got to wait on Hafen.

Just look towards the market a bit. I could easily bring in hundreds of pearls, the higher end items are insanely over priced. Their prices havent dropped even though the world is this far in, people are paying insane amounts for items. It makes these goods just so far unobtainable. I've had more pearls this world than I've had all w3-w6. (And I've done absolutely no pearl gathering myself, and hardly even trade). Likewise I have cupboards of bluebells, I havent foraged a swamp since early september...

trading is different for everyone.
personally speaking my prices differed depending on what I wanted from the trading.
when I first started it was cheap prices, cause I needed buyers and to be competitive and because we had the items to be able to sell cheaply.
as people stopped playing it was difficult to make things for sale, and so prices either had to go up or reduce items for sale.
then u have times when no one else is trading, where u could pretty much bulk up prices. or for items which no ne else was selling you could increase them.
personally I bulk prices when its an item that's a pain in the ass to make.
also if u lack time, increasing prices means u only get trades from serious players., and those tend to be higher end items anyway.

it really depends on so many variables, and not always connected to whether things are easy or difficult to obtain through foraging bot of whatever. each trader is different. it's just easier to check for prices from others ad try to get a price for yourself based on whats out there, but this changes quite a bit

[Xcom]

To say that it takes a master coder, or dedicated player to make such bots such as foraging is just complete fucking bullshit. It took less than a day, even as low as a few hours to get a fully functional foraging bot made on our end. Just endless excuses to justify making the game more toxic than it needs to be. All it is becoming is a circle jerk of who can make the best shit with as little effort as possible. There is no need to sugar coat this at all.

O really? Maybe I should post some of the quotes earlier in this page?

I don't and I think I'll make a fool of myself for saying that but I really don't know how to bot. Nobody ever explained it to me how it works.

Same here

I'm glad you found a way to attach a pathfinder on top of a client, made it collect foragables automatically for days on end and made it smart enough to eat, drink and dropoff its foraged goods. Not only that people on this server loves to kill foraging bots adding that extra element into it. Then found time and energy to keep that PC of your online to have your forager run around in circles collecting your curios and hoping the script wont fail in an awkward spot.

Super easy I know. I know 12 year olds that can do all that the first time they sit down front of the PC to code.

[Lord_of_War]

Making a bot is easy. Making a great bot is hard. Tbh the game has suffered since the introduction of more botting. Sitting here and ranting about it solves nothing.