ITT: We Discuss Whether free Will exists

[Ninijutsu]

I think he's saying we're all "mentally ill" and society is fucked up.

[overtyped]

I think he's saying we're all "mentally ill" and society is fucked up.

There's too many ways to interpret words, that shows the constraints of language.

[Unostop]

I quoted exactly what you had written before you edited it. I guess I was just to quick on the draw.
As for the edited post. A Normal in relative to an abnormal society is what he said was a mental illness. In such environments a person is molded into what that abnormal society expects, and that millions go through life actually abnormal(mentally ill) to what these people would normally be if not for the abnormal society in which they grew up in

Ah i see, i thought he was saying society was our normal and we were abnormal for molding to it, which is true in a way. So is he saying mentally ill people that develop away from society and return to society will not be able to assimilate?

I think it's basically saying the majority of people do assimilate to this abnormal society so well, and that these people now lack the ability to see anything other than their abnormal society as normal. In a sense becoming brainwashed. Unable to perceive what real normal is. Of course it isn't relevant to everyone, but maybe we are these people. Damn this makes my head hurt

[overtyped]

I quoted exactly what you had written before you edited it. I guess I was just to quick on the draw.
As for the edited post. A Normal in relative to an abnormal society is what he said was a mental illness. In such environments a person is molded into what that abnormal society expects, and that millions go through life actually abnormal(mentally ill) to what these people would normally be if not for the abnormal society in which they grew up in

Ah i see, i thought he was saying society was our normal and we were abnormal for molding to it, which is true in a way. So is he saying mentally ill people that develop away from society and return to society will not be able to assimilate?

I think it's basically saying the majority of people do assimilate to this abnormal society so well, and that these people now lack the ability to see anything other than their abnormal society as normal. In a sense becoming brainwashed. Unable to perceive what real normal is. Of course it isn't relevant to everyone, but maybe we are these people. Damn this makes my head hurt

I was thinking that as well. Normal is rather a relative term, normal 100 years ago was slavery. Normal is tied to the present. Yesterdays normal is different from today's normal, it may be such a small difference that you cannot pinpoint what has changed, but normal has an evolution, just like animal evolution, it isn't always heading in a beneficial direction, for example in the US the percentage of prisoners has gone up tremendously. you could say we are becoming more dystopic, but we don't see it because now it is our new normal.

[Unostop]

I guess I was trying to say that our environments(society) effects our free will, or lack thereof. I enjoy discussion and debate, so I had to get my foot in the door somehow

[Unostop]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36179#p478755

Maybe this thread creeped into my psyche somehow. Lack of sleep and to much caffeine perhaps. Sheep=sheeple....damn

[overtyped]

I guess I was trying to say that our environments(society) effects our free will, or lack thereof. I enjoy discussion and debate, so I had to get my foot in the door somehow

Well, it's pretty obvious every thing that comes into contact with us changes us. Our brain 5 seconds ago is different than our brain now, which is also why it's impossible to predict human thought.

[jagolomba]

A choice can be observed as being free if the causal connections leading up to it are not fully understood by the observer.

[mvgulik]

Only bothered to scan the first page.

Quantum mechanics is fundamentally unpredictable -> Random. ... But not statistically unpredictable -> macroscopic predictability (but with limits).
Deterministic views only work within there right time(+size) scales/frame. Chaos theory -> butterfly effect.
- Extend the time factor on any deterministic example and all bets are off.
- Lower the time factor and just about any macroscopic event becomes predicable.
+ Never trust your human logic (also called intuition) when it comes to stuff like this. (or humans that use it as reason for there views of things. ... Yes. That would be Ninijutsu.)

"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." Richard Feynman

More 'on topic':
"It's more important to think that you have a free will, than knowing if you do or not." Me, according to Google.

O yea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

[Ninijutsu]

TIL logic (use of reason) = intuition (lack of reason). Okie dokie.