Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

[Elirian]

Really though, it's not as serious as you want to think because there's not a whole lot you need a constant supply of metal for. Metal plows are nice, but not essential, and everything else does not require repairs or does not require metal for repairs. You can happily trade a load of chantrelles (like I did before) for a few chests, then use those chests to store chantrelles which you trade for a couple of bars. Use those for a cellar, stone mansion, maybe to make a scythe if you're a farmer, and live happily.

This doesn't seem to address the core problem in any way. A player can spend eight hours farming chants to get an hours worth of iron and live happily, but his time, the only resource anyone brings to the game, is still worth less than the miners. That's the issue that will cost players, not whether you can 'get by just fine'.

[Zamte]

Alternatively, everyone has a mine and nobody trades for anything because why would you?

This is what is known as a false dilemma. There are many more options to create trade than the current system where one section of the playerbase is considered in some way more deserving than any other. See.... any game ever?

I don't know what game you're playing, but none of the ones I have played (and I've been playing these games since I was 11, 12 years ago) have been like you are describing.

Games have to award different values to different things, and different values to time invested. This is how it works. In WoW, if I am in a raid, and I get a nice epic BoE drop, I might be able to sell it for 10,000 gold. There's not much else you can do to get 10,000 gold in the period of time it takes to do a raid that don't also involve lucky drops. People who spend time playing the auction house can make a fortune on very little time invested daily if they know what they're doing and space it out between normal play on other characters.

Back in Nexus TK, one of the earliest MMOs, no monsters really dropped money at all. To get money you had to go boss hunt. Certain bosses dropped little, worthless stuff like Tao Stones or Lucky Coins, worth a few thousand coins tops. Others dropped nice stuff like Dragon's Hearts, Bloods, and Ambrosia, easily worth a hundred thousand or more.

In Ultima online, you could make a lot of money running the higher end dungeons with characters built for finding treasures and avoiding traps if you brought a party who was decent at combat. It took very little time and could make you a lot of money and get you a lot of resources very fast.

You cannot, cannot, balance time invested to profit made. It's impossible. The reason is because it's determined by the player! Deciding what we want to sell metal for, based on it's availability and usefulness is exactly how it's intended to be! This is called an "economy".

[Elirian]

Alternatively, everyone has a mine and nobody trades for anything because why would you?

This is what is known as a false dilemma. There are many more options to create trade than the current system where one section of the playerbase is considered in some way more deserving than any other. See.... any game ever?

I don't know what game you're playing, but none of the ones I have played (and I've been playing these games since I was 11, 12 years ago) have been like you are describing.

Games have to award different values to different things, and different values to time invested. This is how it works. In WoW, if I am in a raid, and I get a nice epic BoE drop, I might be able to sell it for 10,000 gold. There's not much else you can do to get 10,000 gold in the period of time it takes to do a raid that don't also involve lucky drops. People who spend time playing the auction house can make a fortune on very little time invested daily if they know what they're doing and space it out between normal play on other characters.

Back in Nexus TK, one of the earliest MMOs, no monsters really dropped money at all. To get money you had to go boss hunt. Certain bosses dropped little, worthless stuff like Tao Stones or Lucky Coins, worth a few thousand coins tops. Others dropped nice stuff like Dragon's Hearts, Bloods, and Ambrosia, easily worth a hundred thousand or more.

In Ultima online, you could make a lot of money running the higher end dungeons with characters built for finding treasures and avoiding traps if you brought a party who was decent at combat. It took very little time and could make you a lot of money and get you a lot of resources very fast.

You cannot, cannot, balance time invested to profit made. It's impossible. The reason is because it's determined by the player! Deciding what we want to sell metal for, based on it's availability and usefulness is exactly how it's intended to be! This is called an "economy".

Of course you can. That's basic game design. WoW is a skinner box, you're naive if you think they don't have very carefully adjusted probabilities. If you took the gold value of everything player A has sold on the auction house in the last 3 years and compared it to the gold value of everything player B has sold, you'll find very little variation. One might have made an extra 2-3% than another. but I really think that's pushing it. Even so, it's hardly an extra 700% is it?

However, once again, you're not addressing the core issue. How many of those games limited the value of entire sections of the playerbases time? Anyone who wanted to make money in those games can go out and do any of the things you are suggesting. I'm beginning to think you're simply deflecting with this continued determination to avoid addressing that which I am actually talking about.

[sabinati]

what the fuck are you actually talking about?

[burgingham]

Why is everybody takin that dude so serious? He is playing for 5 days now, acts like Mr.know-it-all and has disqualified himself several times for this debate. He has clearly no clue about ingame economics and processes and tries to make up for this by pulling random numbers out of his ass...

[Onionfighter]

A player can spend eight hours farming chants to get an hours worth of iron and live happily. . .

Really? How much iron can I get fishing for deer? Brewing sausages?

[Zamte]

People vary, a lot. There will be a much larger difference than 3%, this is because it is not just random chances. We're not just repeatedly pulling the arm of a slot machine and watching it spin over and over. We're playing a game. Players who have mines have them either through luck or the foresight to look for them, and for this and the effort they put into using them and trading with the metal effectively, they MAKE their time more worthwhile. You can jump on opportunities. Pearls recently have been selling for a fortune, new crops are as simple as going out and collecting WWWs and praying, and are worth a lot too. If you do not make the effort to go out and make your time more effective then you have no room to complain it is not.

This is not communism, this is not a slot machine, you reap what you sow, and if you want the most for your time, go and get it. Variations in the cost of products and resources, and thus the values of your time, is determined entirely by what you choose to do, who you choose to deal with, and how well you do it. Explore, find high quality water, soil, or clay, collect herbs to sell, take up prospecting and find a mine of your own, collect WWWs and hope for new crops, go collect mussels for pearls, work on your cooking and make high quality food, or good trees through treepotter's plants. There are dozens of options available to you. Choose what you're going to do and make the most of it.

[sabinati]

A player can spend eight hours farming chants to get an hours worth of iron and live happily. . .

Really? How much iron can I get fishing for deer? Brewing sausages?

how do i mine for fish?

[Elirian]

what the fuck are you actually talking about?

To sum it up:

If player a can get eight times as much 'resource value' from his time as player b, player b won't be around long.


Gotta use the term 'resource value' since there's no real in game currency and everything runs on barter. I'm sure there'll be at least one or two who can't figure out what 'resource value' means

For a little more detail: Notice that I use 'can get' rather than 'gets'. Someone getting more 'resource value' isn't the issue, it's about having the opportunity to do so closed off.

[Potjeh]

The point is that PLAYER B GETS 10x LP.