Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[Duderock]

Last week was spent building high quality weapons using their superior blacksmith stats.

This is not actually what you're saying, but thinking about weapons strikes a chord with something I was thinking about last week.

In the context of "grinding weapons", it is interesting to note that, even if I can keep grinding q93 swords given a certain character and asset configuration, that won't help me make a better weapon than that no matter how many q93 swords I make. To produce that better weapon instead, I may have to do something more qualitative than to just keep grinding swords, like venturing out to find better clay or ore to make a q107 sword, or perhaps try to make a B12 axe instead, or something else.

What I was thinking about was in the context of food. I was considering if it isn't a bit retarded that I can, theoretically speaking, just eat ~250,000 blueberries in order to produce a character with 500 INT, and whether it wouldn't be more fun if I had to keep advancing towards qualitatively different food (and/or more variety, or something) to keep advancing, somehow (and we already have some plans baking for Haven 2 that aren't entirely dissimilar from that).

This is just a rant, really, because I'm still not sure just what conclusions I should be drawing from that, but perhaps someone found it interesting.

Actually this ties in a lot with what I'm saying. We are opting for a more qualitative approach in both our cases. It makes things a lot more strategic and adds variety like you said.

I'm definitely in favor of advancing in qualitatively different food over the current quantitative one. Its more fitting for a sustainable sandbox.

[Duderock]

Loftar is entirely correct when he says that stat decay, much like all forms of penalizing upkeep, blow. They turn playing the game to any degree into a chore, punish you for not playing 24/7, and consume valuable resources to no real benefit......

Maybe I should start a thread so I won't have to repeat things. I'm not blaming you of course because I don't expect people to read back a few pages.

Anyway here is what I replied.

Have you tried looking at it from a different angle? Don't look at stats as the goal itself, think of them as the tools to achieve another goal.

For example, lets say I need to raid an opposite settlement. So for a week we build up our fighting stats. Then we attack and we succeed. Now there is a drought because our farming stats were under-compensated so the focus changes to farming. Notice how the goal shift and changes according to the circumstances. It stops being about maintenance and more about thinking about what the player truly needs.

For stat decay to work it would require a real change in mentality. The problem is people would still see the stats as the goal itself, not the means to achieve another goal, thats why its so unpopular.

[Oddity]

or nodes that are only suitable to grow certain crops (thus making trade necessary if quality matters at all)

Or people will just brickwall multiple areas so they can have both.

You could also put some more blatant measures in order, such as making it so you can only run one Haven client per computer at once.

No, they can't. Don't you read any of the hundreds of discussions on this topic that this forum has every year?

[TeckXKnight]

No, I did read that. I actually wrote a bit of a reply to that at first too, but it was formulating into a larger idea that I wasn't willing to commit the time to so I erased it.
Essentially, no one is going to view stats and stat decay as just some temporary resource. You want them to detach themselves in a manner that is inconsistent with reality. As you said, it'd require a change in mentality and that isn't going to happen. Why bother considering alternatives that would require you to rewrite reality?

[Duderock]

Well, it's not like its un-intuitive. In reality if you don't practice something for a while you slowly lose proficiency in it. Is it hard to get used to? Yes, but so is permadeath.

[loftar]

Well, it's not like its un-intuitive. In reality if you don't practice something for a while you slowly lose proficiency in it. Is it hard to get used to? Yes, but so is permadeath.

Well, the thing is that it's plainly fun to be able to invest in your character. If those investments are merely transient, it's not as much fun.

[Duderock]

Well, the thing is that it's plainly fun to be able to invest in your character. If those investments are merely transient, it's not as much fun.

It is fun. But that doesn't mean its the only way to have fun. I'm just replacing this type of fun with a more sustainable one.

[Ninijutsu]

On the topic of permadeath, it doesn't exist in Haven. My warrior died a couple days ago, but if I use Einher (which is super easy to get for any medium level village), I'll have the same stats as my einhered inherit. Please take that shit out of Hafen.

[loftar]

It is fun. But that doesn't mean its the only way to have fun. I'm just replacing this type of fun with a more sustainable one.

I for one consider it an extremely central part of what makes RPGs fun, and I wouldn't really want to replace it with something else. Note, of course, that "investing in your character" doesn't necessarily have to mean "grinding stat numbers", but removing it also removes the focus from the character itself, which makes the game less of an RPG.

[loftar]

On the topic of permadeath, it doesn't exist in Haven. My warrior died a couple days ago, but if I use Einher (which is super easy to get for any medium level village), I'll have the same stats as my einhered inherit. Please take that shit out of Hafen.

To be fair, though, two characters, both with about equally powerful ancestors, will still be quite unequal if only one of them has high values on his own.