Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[Danno]

Sigh. I read it through, and I already regret it. This is precisely what I mean by "not having seen heaping amounts" of good ideas.

I'm sure you won't be satisfied with that response, but to be honest I don't really know what to respond. I've read your replies like five times over by now, and I can tell that they're either horrible, vague or just hopelessly abstract (or just entirely obvious), but I'm having a very hard time putting my finger on just how. I can't really motivate spending more time trying to exalt just why they are bad, though, so I'm afraid I'll have to leave you thinking I'm an idiot.

And having players repeat tedious tasks infinitely to gain an ever-growing advantage against latecomers is a good idea? My ideas would be less vague if people weren't always screaming "wall of text". There's no room to include anything more than a very brief example.

Having people progress from blueberries to blueberry pies to OP cheese is what's already happening. What's so new and exciting about that idea? Don't get me wrong, more variety in the foods is sorta fun, but people just end up eating the most valuable food in the end. No matter how much food you add, the players will reach the end of the list and things will stagnate - it's only a short matter of time.

Do you agree or disagree that it makes sense to use the players themselves as end-game content in a multiplayer game where you inevitably run out of things to do? That doesn't necessarily mean chaotic daily PvP, just take the question as literally as possible without thinking further on it. If you disagree, then I guess I'll stop wasting everyone's time and leave you to your thoughts.

[Oddity]

There would be a single crown that:
[...]

Yes, we have actually considered such ideas on numerous occasions, and we don't hate it all too much at all, and it may well become a reality one day. We've just prioritized other things.

Examples?

[Mernil]

And having players repeat tedious tasks infinitely to gain an ever-growing advantage against latecomers is a good idea?

About that part, I think I can answer since I'm back in for a week.

So first thing first : "having players repeat tedious tasks infinitely"; are you meaning "bots" ?

Then yes, of course I know about people with 1k UC, but guess what, I didn't see any yet. I guess they may be busy touching their penis behind their 3 layer BW.

That's not the point though.
Yes, if you start today, you are kind of late.
But you'll eventually meet people in game. And they are so happy to see someone active they'll help you! (I even actually got one of them roll a character to join my village - without asking).

I've been given a good merchant robe, fine pickaxe, q180+ curios, and tons of other things I won't enumerate.

Also, since people are leaving, there are dozens (literally) of abandoned places where you can easily settle.
Most of the time it will require a ram to break the door (often open) to finally have your own key.

Inside you'll find decent Q stuff, maybe good trees / plants, houses (with basement sometimes).
Everything that's a pain in the ass to make is often already existing, you just have to pick.

Then no, I won't be OP in the next few weeks, but I'm not a fresh noob anymore, and I'm pretty happy seeing how fast thing goes.

In a few weeks I'll have a vault and some raiders on their way to put some action in game.

And all of this without even taking a look into the market... Get some high Q seeds and you get to the level of everybody assuming you have a farmer to follow up.

[loftar]

Do you agree or disagree that it makes sense to use the players themselves as end-game content in a multiplayer game where you inevitably run out of things to do?

Of course it is. The ideas you presented fall short of that ideal, however.

increased PvP incentive

I hardly think you need to "incentivize" PvP anymore than it currently is; if anything, we've constantly had to disincentivize it in order to keep the server from falling into complete chaos. What is needed is better and more balanced PvP, not incentives.

nodes that are only suitable to grow certain crops

Localized resources are always a good idea in my mind, and we already have quite a few of them, obviously. Of course, you'll have noted that people tend to find ways around them and/or simply claim all that they need anyway, and just making crops restricted to certain biomes isn't going to fix that in and of itself. It would also need a lot more crops than there currently are in order to prevent farming from being boring to the individual player/group. That's not to say that I wouldn't like to add a lot more crops, but it's not something that can be done overnight when you consider the indirect consequences in terms of things to actually do with the crops &c&c.

As I suggested much earlier, you could also have certain structures only buildable if your village has x amount of allies, which would act as further incentive.

Please. I'll just build ten villages myself and ally them with each other. You cannot possibly consider this idea seriously.

Village management tools (alliances and permission options) would also increase player interaction.

This is a contentious, large and highly abstract point and could be discussed (and has been, multiple times) at length in itself. You can't just say "village management tools" and think that's a good idea, because it could mean almost anything.

[loftar]

Examples? :)

Well, we haven't really considered the details, only the abstracts. Duderock's was so similar to that that you can almost consider it identical.

I'm fairly sure this has been presented previously, but we've also considered a system of player-induced Armageddon, where a delicate procedure could be gone through to cause a world wipe; one that opposing factions would have good chances to interfere with, of course. It would have the somewhat nice aspect that there would be a reset whenever the majority of the players wanted it. :)

(This should not be construed as a plan that we are going to implement. I'm just presenting things we have considered.)

[Oddity]

I'm fairly sure this has been presented previously, but we've also considered a system of player-induced Armageddon, where a delicate procedure could be gone through to cause a world wipe; one that opposing factions would have good chances to interfere with, of course. It would have the somewhat nice aspect that there would be a reset whenever the majority of the players wanted it.

(This should not be construed as a plan that we are going to implement. I'm just presenting things we have considered.)

Yeah, I brought that up recently. It sounds so cool, even though I don't know what a good implementation would be like. Jorb mentioned it in a W1 or W2 announcement thread.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1128

Q: Do you have any wild and crazy ideas on the topic?
A: A permanent cycle of death and rebirth would fit the game's theme very well. I've considered implementing a natural cycle of Great Sunderings -- complete map and character reset -- which could only be prevented through massive, epic level, rituals of world rejuvenation, which anyone would then be free to assist in, or work to prevent. That would be pretty cool, but it's far off. I agree with the people who have been pushing for a character reset in that, with the completion of the major roads between the settlements, and the near closing of the frontiers, map development has stagnated somewhat. The initial land rush of a few weeks ago was a lot of fun to watch, and It'd be great if those experiences could be integrated into the backbone of the game, rather than being one off events. It might conflict too much with people's ambitions to create lasting values to be doable, but at least we'd be creating a very unique game environment.

[Kaios]

Loftar you are the biggest piece of shit I've ever seen. You state you haven't seen any good ideas, people try to offer some ideas and then you go and shit all over them. Am I really surprised though? No, I suppose I am not.

You would agree that the game is not perfect in its current state, yet you are unable to accept the fact that your current mechanics are not liked by everyone. In fact, I have heard plenty of ideas that I feel are 100x better than much of the stupid shit you currently have implemented or would make a huge array of improvements to the overall replay value of the game but for some reason you continue to be unable admit to yourself that maybe some of the systems you came up with Jorb are just not fun at all and the people trying to perpetuate to you that they actually do have fun playing the boring ass grind game after such a long time are not helping the situation in the least. Plenty of excellent ideas have been presented to you in the past so how you can claim that you have never seen them I'm uncertain or you are truly just clueless.

What exactly is your problem you high horse motherfucker? I guess the plebs are not suitable enough to contribute to "Haven & Hearth: The Part-Time Job"

[jorb]

Cool down, Kaios. No one here is on any high horses. We are quite willing to admit that the game isn't perfect, or that all the mechanics are great -- we have never claimed anything like it, and if we had we wouldn't be remaking from scratch. What loftar said was that the ideas presented have been vague, imprecise, or bad, which is true.

you are unable to accept the fact that your current mechanics are not liked by everyone.

Not at all. He is unable to accept certain specific attempts at problem framing, which is quite something else.

You are entirely right in that this isn't a democratic powergrab fest, however.

[Tonkyhonk]

jorb! where have you been hiding lately?!?!

[Danno]

About that part, I think I can answer since I'm back in for a week.

Doesn't skipping the first half of the grind defeat the purpose of grinding for "character development" in the first place? This just encourages players to not even bother with the fun part of the game (building something in the world to call your own). Basically, instead of making your own burgers, you just got yourself hired at McDonald's to make McDonald's burgers part-time.

I hardly think you need to "incentivize" PvP anymore than it currently is; if anything, we've constantly had to disincentivize it in order to keep the server from falling into complete chaos. What is needed is better and more balanced PvP, not incentives.

I agree it needs to be balanced, but balanced means newer players need to be able to viably participate. I'm not saying a character should be PvP ready within a day, but 3 weeks from scratch sounds reasonable to me. The better organized faction with more players will win, of course, but newer players should at least be capable of attempting to defend themselves from attacks. It would be nice if they felt like going out to fight someone wasn't going to erase 500 hours of grinding, too. Having a constant cold war is going too far to disincentivize PvP.

Localized resources are always a good idea in my mind, and we already have quite a few of them, obviously. Of course, you'll have noted that people tend to find ways around them and/or simply claim all that they need anyway, and just making crops restricted to certain biomes isn't going to fix that in and of itself. It would also need a lot more crops than there currently are in order to prevent farming from being boring to the individual player/group. That's not to say that I wouldn't like to add a lot more crops, but it's not something that can be done overnight when you consider the indirect consequences in terms of things to actually do with the crops &c&c.

Yes, players will greedily circumvent these obstacles so they can have everything at once. There will be people who do it - hardcore bot factions that want to be the undisputable #1 in the game. Will an average player like myself do it? No, too much dedication, I'll have to trade with other players in my region. It's not a perfect fix, but it would increase player interaction amongst a large portion of the population.

Please. I'll just build ten villages myself and ally them with each other. You cannot possibly consider this idea seriously.

Again, there will be some who go that far to circumvent it, but most people won't. It's far too tedious and takes too much effort to maintain. If you put a little more effort into deterring alts, it would make it that much less likely to happen. It still would happen, but there would probably only be 3 or 4 factions that would actually bother while this would be an interesting feature for the rest of the players.

This is a contentious, large and highly abstract point and could be discussed (and has been, multiple times) at length in itself. You can't just say "village management tools" and think that's a good idea, because it could mean almost anything.

No time to respond at length, will respond after work.