Most disgusting, flaming thread ever. Also, twats.

[Delamore]

If this game ever starts charging Id probably create and launch my own. There is a far better business model available for games.

Explain a better business model than charging.
Also then tell us how if it is so easy to create a game from nothing then why have you not done it and made a large chunk of money from it?
Fuck if it is that easy why haven't you made multiple and become a millionaire?

[PoisonedV]

If this game ever starts charging Id probably create and launch my own. There is a far better business model available for games.

Micropayments? Micropayments are a fucking abomination. They give a shitty experience for free players, and are even worse in a full, open game like this. Also I'd be willing to bet my ass you don't know a damn thing about coding- It's not like this is something common, these guys making this really have talent. 2 people for something like this is an incredibly small team. So, do you actually know coding, and art, and all that, or know someone who is willing to dedicate hundreds of hours to all of this? Or are you going to start a small startup company, where you down actually have a role and all the work is forced on employees that you don't coordinate based on a game you don't know how to design or market, the only things left for you to do? Judging from your suggestions you already don't have any idea about game mechanics, basic or indepth, and you certainly wouldn't be able to compete in a niche and hardcore and small market like this. But, you know, that's your choice. Please go create your own game and leave this one, if you choose.

Oh, and to Delamore: my issue with micropayments isnt really with them being about money but them being horrible to the game and its community. it makes two different levels of players depending on how rich their parents are or how careless they are with their money.

[Delamore]

If this game ever starts charging Id probably create and launch my own. There is a far better business model available for games.

Micropayments? Micropayments are a fucking abomination. They give a shitty experience for free players, and are even worse in a full, open game like this. Also I'd be willing to bet my ass you don't know a damn thing about coding- It's not like this is something common, these guys making this really have talent. 2 people for something like this is an incredibly small team.

You see, I just said "Charging" micropayments are a form of charge the only real other model is using terrible ads.

[Colbear]

The game is small, and the code is easier to navigate -- changes, in general, should be somewhat easier. It is developed by two people, which means both should be fairly comfortable with the code, as opposed to being developed by 2 people + a small team who are pulled in later, who were not around when the feature that needs fixing was implemented.

The game is in early alpha, so players are more willing to put up with bugs that would be considered critically gamebreaking in a final state -- changes, in general, should be more often and more well-received. For example, the sewer that is Second Life wanted to restructure its stuff a while ago, to run better -- but so many users had made so many stupid scripts and items that would break on a change that the Linden Lab guys were unable to, or something.

Many newbies are joining from already-established websites to play with their friends, so will be less dissuaded by inconveniences like someone fucking with the RoB, while newbies who AREN'T joining to play with friends would be more likely to just quit and not bother with it as soon as the play experience gets somewhat bothersome with no promise of enjoyment. Now is a relatively good time to fuck with the RoB -- a better time would be when there were no newbies. A worse time would be right after an appearance in a major gaming website, where there would be many soloing newbies who don't have people ingame to talk to.

The devs are currently interested in the game and putting in effort to produce regular updates. Now is a good time to push them to do critical changes, because devs can and do get bored of their own games, so "most important things first -- fix GAMEBREAKING things first" is usually the way to go.

The player base is small. Now is a good time to find and use anything that would crash the server or ruin the game experience, because relatively speaking, wrecking the game for 50 people (by crashing the server, skewing combat, etc, etc) is not as bad as wrecking the game for 500 people, especially if the response time or size of the dev team or speed of fixes does not change.

Devs are able to directly speak to individual players without being completely mobbed, as tends to happen in larger communities. This makes it easier for them to find and get explanations for bugs or exploits that have taken place. They are more accessible now than they will be in the future (when 500 people all want to talk to them at once), so now is a good time to ask them to directly address game-breaking or otherwise critical issues.

Therefore, game-breaking or otherwise critical issues should be addressed now or in the very near future.

[theTrav]

Because at this point the game is small, it does not charge

The dev's have stated that they are unlikely to ever charge. I assume they're going to stick with that.

and the devs don't have as much on their plate as they will in a years time.

Are you implying that something drastic is going to change in their personal lives? Maybe you know something we don't... So far as the game goes I assume they've got a more or less infinite list of features they want to get done, so I can't see their work queue (if you call it that) getting smaller.

What happens when you get a group of people that join and ONLY grief people? What then?

I can't see more players exploiting the same problems making the problem any harder to fix from a dev perspective. It might possibly have a larger impact on the player base, but I would expect the per-player impact would be the same or lower.

The game is small, and the code is easier to navigate -- changes, in general, should be somewhat easier.
It is developed by two people, which means both should be fairly comfortable with the code,

Only one of the dev's is a programmer, that's Loftar. Jorb does the art and they share high level game and mechanic design.

as opposed to being developed by 2 people + a small team who are pulled in later, who were not around when the feature that needs fixing was implemented.

I believe the assumtion that Loftar is going to dilute his creative control by adding more people is flawed. He's indicated that he doesn't want to, (see the sticky thread) and from what I've seen of him he's quite capable of managing this project on his own.
When only a single person works on the code, then it's all in his brain space.
I can see your point about the code base becoming quite large, however with good development practice and IDE support that's not necessarily an issue.
I work on a large enterprise system for the Australian government, at last audit it had over 500,000 classes in it. When making most changes I deal with maybe 20 to 100 classes and believe me, navigation is not a problem, especially in the parts I've developed myself (I've been on this system for 2 years on and off).
I expect Loftar is more capable than me and I expect his project will not grow as large as the ones I've been working on in a year or two, if ever.

The game is in early alpha, so players are more willing to put up with bugs that would be considered critically gamebreaking in a final state -- changes, in general, should be more often and more well-received. For example, the sewer that is Second Life wanted to restructure its stuff a while ago, to run better -- but so many users had made so many stupid scripts and items that would break on a change that the Linden Lab guys were unable to, or something.

I don't know if I except an argument based on pandering to players in response to "how does it make it harder for dev's"... While I think J&L want to keep players happy to a degree, I don't think they have the same pressures on them as a dev team who rely on their game for regular income.

Many newbies are joining from already-established websites to play with their friends, ... snip ...A worse time would be right after an appearance in a major gaming website, where there would be many soloing newbies who don't have people ingame to talk to.

Ok, that's the same thing, yes, maybe it'd have more impact on players by sheer dent of numbers, I don't think that really affects the difficulty of development.

The devs are currently interested in the game and putting in effort to produce regular updates. Now is a good time to push them to do critical changes, because devs can and do get bored of their own games, so "most important things first -- fix GAMEBREAKING things first" is usually the way to go.

In my experience when dev's lose interest they stop developing features and ONLY work on game breaking things if anything... I reject that argument.

The player base is small... snip...

This is a re-hash of the same argument you've made twice earlier, I reject it for the same reasons.

Devs are able to directly speak to individual players without being completely mobbed, as tends to happen in larger communities. This makes it easier for them to find and get explanations for bugs or exploits that have taken place. They are more accessible now than they will be in the future (when 500 people all want to talk to them at once), so now is a good time to ask them to directly address game-breaking or otherwise critical issues.

This is the closest to a good reason, however I don't see how it applies to any of the problems that have currently occurred. All have been quite straight forward, and even if they were reported 1000 times in various ways J&L would likely be able to figure out what's going on from the first 5 threads or PM's.



Ok, Thanks for providing your reasonings. I do not agree with them.
I could be wrong, I'm well aware of that and I think if I am then it's most likely on the size of the code base point.

I'm not deliberately trying to troll you guys and I appologise for biting at Jackards bullshit (a troll presented as an argument) that was foolish of me.

I understand that the default mentality for any project (software or otherwise) is that fixing things sooner is better and easier than later, however I don't believe you guys have applied critical analysis to it. I'm against following "conventional" wisdom without thinking, as this is not a "conventional" project in many ways.

[sami1337]

Only one of the dev's is a programmer, that's Loftar. Jorb does the art and they share high level game and mechanic design.

Only half true. Loftar is the man behind the code but Jorb can make minor edits too and somewhat understands the code as a whole. Atleast that's how he told me it.

[Delamore]

Because at this point the game is small, it does not charge

The dev's have stated that they are unlikely to ever charge. I assume they're going to stick with that.

But this seems to be out of a belief that the game is not worth paying for, while in its current state not many would pay but the future promise it has would be enough to sell it like Minecraft.

[Jackard]

Charging for games is a fairly cheap form of entertainment, really. You can often get a months worth of play for the price of a single meal.

[Ferinex]

Charging for games is a fairly cheap form of entertainment, really. You can often get a months worth of play for the price of a single meal.

I'm a cheapskate, I wouldn't P2P :3

/cue raeg

[Jackard]

also jesus, look at the length of trav's post

i thought he was just trolling but apparently he actually believes all of this stuff whats up with that