Hearth vaults.

[bmjclark]

@General-GSP, the fact that small raiding groups of like 5 people can stand up to big factions just cause they can hide in their vaults till scents go away is complete BS and the only way u can argue thats fair is if ur one of the people abusing the mechanic.

[DatOneGuy]

Stuff

The idea is to make it so that it takes a lot of work and space to make an actual defense, and what you would be able to fit in a vault would not be good enough and maintaining several small 'vault' like villages would also be significantly weaker than owning one large one.

I do just fine with small vaults. thank you.


Edit: Bla Bla Bla almost gave away TMI.

@ burgingham
I somewhat agree with you on most stuff.
Like we do need more balance with siege and anti-siege. But you say small groups of weak raiders cause to many good players from bigger villages to quit due to getting raided and killed? what about the multitudes of hermits that want to be more than Quality grinding drones at the mercy of those bigger factions. Why do they Not get to play as they choose, and if doing means dieing repeatedly and being forced to start over. Yes commiting crimes should involve risk. But big factions with the manpower should be able track these types while they are online or chase them from "vault" to "vault" destroying each in turn till the rabbit has no more holes to run to. That should be the power of people that banned together and form a strong faction. Not simply say it isn't right to have multiple holes to hide in cause we don't want to spend 5 days tracking this guy to 5 vaults. And beside what really is the difference between one vault that takes 5 days to breech or 5 vaults that takes one day each? Either can really only be effectively besieged by a strong faction anyway.

Now small groups fighting small group is a entirely different situation and will ultimately depend on which side has the stronger friends , manpower , vault / vaults , or determination.

Current mechanics do not allow what you imply we should do, any faction is better living in damn vaults they are OP, we made use of this a lot in w3. Hermits are cared for up to a point. Jnl said before villages should be better, as make sense

[General-GSP]

@General-GSP, the fact that small raiding groups of like 5 people can stand up to big factions just cause they can hide in their vaults till scents go away is complete BS and the only way u can argue thats fair is if ur one of the people abusing the mechanic.

First: Why is it BS. Are you to damn lazy to track beyond the first vault?

Second: It's always gonna happen as long as walls exist. Utopia doesn't exist.

Third: If you don't like criminals go play farmville.

Forth: So biggest faction = win and everyone will live by their rules or....die? End game is what? ha ha ha we got biggest faction first and now we crush anyone the tries to usurper our power?

Fifth: @ DoG How do current mechanic stop Pand. from crushing dozens of single brickwall vaults? If you took 20-30 guys to crush Taar. you should be able to crush five small vaults with ease. even if you don't get the guy you still crushed 4-5 of his vaults that is probably worth more than the vandal alt you were chasing anyway.

.....
But hey I'm all for a better system. If one can be created that doesn't fuck over hermits and small groups. My point is very simple. Haven and Hearth should not be a "join with a big faction if you want to PvP or be a villain" When Someone starts talking about how much HV suck all I here is " QQ villains suck" As burgingham has stated this game needs bad guys.

The best balancing idea i have heard of yet is adding a decent soak to rams. if a fresh alt with a picaxe, cape, BTT, can't smash them then the attackers have a better chance of defending it till it is ready to use. And if said vault has few alt trained up to be effective against said ram ... well they can't last that long till they are all dead.

As for locking the HF in place no matter what farce of a mechanism you try to justify is simple a death sentence to any and all users of black arts. you might as well just add a death-timer to activate when the first crime is committed that kills said criminal 1 hr later. Unless i misunderstand you want to gather scent and set out tracking. Then upon reaching the criminals hideout you lock his HF in place until your ram is dry or you breech his wall. THEN he can move his HF? WTF good will that do as 2 minutes later he will be dead at your feet whether he was afk or logged out. If the guy has to be at his computer 24/7 to have a snowballs chance in hell at surviving. I'm sorry that just sounds like you don't want badguys period. And if it is a set 24 hr lockdown that can be repeated then same difference. Put yourself in this position : You get attacked but win....oh no... you left a battery scent....3 hrs later a party of his bad guy friends show up to your village and lock your HF and start building a ram. What do you do? Attack? 1 vs 4? 2 vs 4? unless of course you are the big bad faction that is the only ones allowed to be villains and attack 20 vs 4. and wipe them off the map.

it still all comes down to this. Why do hermits and small groups not get to play HnH the way they want to?

[DatOneGuy]

My last post was made on my phone so sorry if it was a bit rushed.

--
To get to your point, raiders should not be stopped nor should hermits however we're talking about balance here.

As far as balance goes if you expect a hermit to hold the same power as a village of 20 people you're a joke, hermits choose their lifestyle and it should be weaker, now if that hermit has the skill and know how that is far superior to the 20 yea he should be better off, and probably will be.

However the idea here is that there is no safety in numbers and if anything you are losing some, you have a larger area to patrol because more people means more resources, you need to claim more, do more work overall it's annoying, and you gain nothing in the means of protection. Oh you can get 20 warriors together? How's that getting you past that wall, oh wait, it's not. Max of 4 on a ram so you're not getting in any faster, most people are UA not ranger so you're not exactly stacking up ranger fights.

Overall, more people past 5~10 is not doing you too much good as far as that goes, and most people can't keep up a 30 person army ALL the fucking time or at will.

Right now even if you rammed down that vault it would
A)Take several to ram down the whole brickwall
B)Barely affect them, the brickwall is rebuilt, so are the houses, all they need to do is warp back, unless you want to check that place for the rest of the server, you're not stopping anyone from reusing it in a week.

So we've identified a third problem village takeover.

Currently what I've gotten to separate vaults, hermits, and villages are this:

Vaults:
Typically only houses, no crops, a multitude of very closely stacked brick walls
HFs move in and out and so do the people inside, typically not staying part of the village, just joining to warp and set HF, or not even just taking a CR over.

Hermitage:
Houses, crops, brick walls or palisades, typically a single person leaving, doubt he moves his HF much

Village:
Lots of brickwalls, crops, CRs, space, a bit of everything
Several people live inside, HFs may come and go, but most are part of the village.

--
Now when it comes to vaults there are a few problems with them:
1)They are VERY easy to build, and are just as strong as the walls of a large village! (Build:Destroy cost ratio is way off)
2)It is very easy to make a lot of them and move between them, this right here creates a huge breakdown and most of their problems (Disposable , temporary)
3)You can never truly 'break' one down, it's always rebuildable unless you kill the LS, every character in it, take over the idol and then break it. (This is a problem with idols in general!)

So some suggestions to fix it?

1 A)Make larger walls stronger - Bad fix, makes no sense and is ugly (I got no good fix I'd suggest for this!)
2 A)Lockdown HFs
2 B)Lockdown aura of HFs with rams
2 C)Lock down option when tracking
2 D)Some other silly way to make it so that you can't move your damn HF faster than rams are set up.

See the problem here is let's say I'm at the first vault, okay I take the 24 hours for ram, BAM fucker moves his vault, oh wait there goes a whole fucking day on his scents.
>Go to next vault
>Repeat
Oh wait, there goes a whole nother day
4 days later. Scents gone.
Repeat constantly, nothing happens, nothing matters.
Hell he could just move back and forth between a few.

As for the whole bad guy thing, in case you were unaware it was actually my plan to be a bad guy, but it's just too fucking easy, so easy in fact that no one can touch you and all the people you grief will just quit instead, which is why it needs to be addressed badly.

There shouldn't be SUCH a disparity between the 'many' and the few as to say you could never beat the person who started up, but you should need a considerable force to meet his. Honestly how many times out of 100 should 5 people be able to beat 30?

[General-GSP]

However the idea here is that there is no safety in numbers and if anything you are losing some, you have a larger area to patrol because more people means more resources, you need to claim more, do more work overall it's annoying, and you gain nothing in the means of protection. Oh you can get 20 warriors together? How's that getting you past that wall, oh wait, it's not. Max of 4 on a ram so you're not getting in any faster, most people are UA not ranger so you're not exactly stacking up ranger fights.

My main point of numbers isn't so much 20 strong all at once but more of a rotation of people taking turns guarding said ram so it don't get broke. And / or leaving some behind after the HF is moved incase they do come back to a previously used HV while someone else moves on tracking to next.

Right now even if you rammed down that vault it would
A)Take several to ram down the whole brickwall
B)Barely affect them, the brickwall is rebuilt, so are the houses, all they need to do is warp back, unless you want to check that place for the rest of the server, you're not stopping anyone from reusing it in a week.

Now when it comes to vaults there are a few problems with them:
1)They are VERY easy to build, and are just as strong as the walls of a large village! (Build:Destroy cost ratio is way off)
2)It is very easy to make a lot of them and move between them, this right here creates a huge breakdown and most of their problems (Disposable , temporary)
3)You can never truly 'break' one down, it's always rebuildable unless you kill the LS, every character in it, take over the idol and then break it. (This is a problem with idols in general!)

But how to fix. Am open to ideas. but players are always going to try to find the easiest solution for the least cost to achieve their goals. human nature.

2 A)Lockdown HFs
2 B)Lockdown aura of HFs with rams
2 C)Lock down option when tracking
2 D)Some other silly way to make it so that you can't move your damn HF faster than rams are set up.

This is what i have the biggest problem with. IT's a death sentence pure and simple. How do you defend against this. the only way is with larger more complex vaults. Or have a large enough force to actually fight it out. And if this is your goal, my personal opinion is Haven will get real boring as to many would-be villains get sick of have no hope and quit. your alienating an entire play style.

See the problem here is let's say I'm at the first vault, okay I take the 24 hours for ram, BAM fucker moves his vault, oh wait there goes a whole fucking day on his scents.
>Go to next vault
>Repeat
Oh wait, there goes a whole nother day
4 days later. Scents gone.
Repeat constantly, nothing happens, nothing matters.
Hell he could just move back and forth between a few.

Yes and no. this is strategy and tactics. why MUST you win first try?
Try maybe chase him around, damage / loot a few vaults, learn about your enemy, and wait let him feel comfortable and raids you again . then send 1 guy to each vault ahead of him and break as many as you know about all at once. Sun Tzu man. Knowledge is power.

but yes IF a solution can be found that doesn't swing the odds ridiculously in favor of the attackers I will be 100% on board.

[bmjclark]

Yes and no. this is strategy and tactics. why MUST you win first try?
Try maybe chase him around, damage / loot a few vaults, learn about your enemy, and wait let him feel comfortable and raids you again . then send 1 guy to each vault ahead of him and break as many as you know about all at once. Sun Tzu man. Knowledge is power.

but yes IF a solution can be found that doesn't swing the odds ridiculously in favor of the attackers I will be 100% on board.

The main problem is that vaults are significantly safer then a village environment as far as somewhere to store ur HF. Most vaults require 2 rams to break into, are on l5 of a mine, or have no room for a ram to be walled in. If wall str was somehow tied into auth (capped at some point of course), making brick bashing possible up to a certain auth or something, it would make the multitudes of vaults easier to deal with and not fuck over villages. I know thats a crude fix and im not saying it should be implemented, but vaults need to go. They should NOT exist at all in this game.

[General-GSP]

From "Stop. It's Hammertime" Near the End of W3

i do think with removal of brick bashing, that more fucking annoying hearth vaults will show up, with the removal of siegewalls they will be harder to break, but with the changes going both ways, villages will have a better shot at protecting themselves against raiders in the first place

Hmm i knew i read this somewhere. Not of any real significance. but this was seen coming....deja vu.

[DatOneGuy]

My main point of numbers isn't so much 20 strong all at once but more of a rotation of people taking turns guarding said ram so it don't get broke. And / or leaving some behind after the HF is moved incase they do come back to a previously used HV while someone else moves on tracking to next.

Rotation is a joke, you need to have a lot of people from a lot of different timezones, and you want a hell of a lot more than 5 guys watching the ram, because if they come out and see only 5 guys, they'll go rush to get 10 and kick your ass, now you have 5 dead characters.
I shouldn't have to spread myself out thin to attack them, and I certainly should have an easier time killing 5 people than they should killing/fucking with 50+.

But how to fix. Am open to ideas. but players are always going to try to find the easiest solution for the least cost to achieve their goals. human nature.

Feel free to toss one out there, best one I could think of I posted, other people have posted other ideas.

This is what i have the biggest problem with. IT's a death sentence pure and simple. How do you defend against this. the only way is with larger more complex vaults. Or have a large enough force to actually fight it out. And if this is your goal, my personal opinion is Haven will get real boring as to many would-be villains get sick of have no hope and quit. your alienating an entire play style.

It's a death sentence to larger villages with the current setup:
1)(Problem with resources), they can vandalize resources and harass us, and we CANNOT stop them, you can go vault by vault but when vaults are on L5 and it takes you 5 mineholes (easily blocked after by the people you are raiding!!) just to set a ram, it is a problem and it is a bitch to deal with.
You'll have no warp back to this place that could be hours away in travel unless you wait 24 hours (just as long as a fucking ram) to set a village somewhere nearby to have CRs to, to attack them.
2)It's not a death sentence, they'll have to swat away rams like the fucking rest of us, the difference is they can't play hide and go fucking seek while doing it.
Typical village/hermitage: See ram->Need to break or you get raided and your shit is all gone
Typical vault->Who gives a fuck nothing to steal, move HF and let them raid it, fix wall and move back when done
The last idea here is to alienate the playing style, raiders like regular people should have to band together to be stronger, a solo raider shouldn't be able to constantly provoke and attack a large village, even Robin Hood needed his friends.
3)Haven will never get boring for raiders, griefing is fun, but when someone comes knocking and has the power to kick your shit in, it's funny how THESE people are stopped.

Yes and no. this is strategy and tactics. why MUST you win first try?
Try maybe chase him around, damage / loot a few vaults, learn about your enemy, and wait let him feel comfortable and raids you again . then send 1 guy to each vault ahead of him and break as many as you know about all at once. Sun Tzu man. Knowledge is power.

I don't HAVE to win first try, but with current mechanics it's impossible to EVER win.
Let's say 1 person has 10 vaults.
I get a murder scent (lasts 9 days)
I attack first vault, maybe ram lives, maybe not, usually, it won't. Unless I set up brick (it amazingly lasts...), and then I proceed brick wall+gate the ram nearby his wall and then attack him in 24 hours), now even then having to wait 12+24hours for the ram/brick, I now have to get back and his HF is probably gone, repeat again, blah blah, 10 vaults later I'm out of scents. Next time I get his scents? He's got his brick wall up again, even if it's the very next fucking day guaranteed he has some walls back up at one of them and is starting it again. These guys have a lot more than 10 vaults too, they have more like 30, that means a month of me going through vaults to find them all, also baiting their scents the whole time and hoping they don't rebulld at previously destroyed vaults (which is very very easy to do).
And you think it stops at 10 vaults? 30? Hahaha no, you could go ahead and make 100 vaults for the price of one decently sized village (in bricks), and you'd be fucking set, who could come after you? Not a damn person, someone comes at you? Swap, boom, instant win.

The problem here isn't knowledge, the problem here is fucking ease of movement, one vault is breakable, surely, but you can't break what you don't know, and furthermore, evne if you know them you'd have to hit them all at fucking once for it to be worth a shit or they'll just continue to shift around.

but yes IF a solution can be found that doesn't swing the odds ridiculously in favor of the attackers I will be 100% on board.

Toss some out there, we all should.

[Achilles]

I'll post link to my idea, as it seems no one looks for alpha's thread anymore: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20419&p=246137#p246137
In short, attackers declaring war (and the war is always costly) to block HF movement by spending their authority and defenders trying to counter. Apparently random villain in one-man-vault have close to none chances to survive siege whilst active village can counter more powerful enemies.

[burgingham]

My main point of numbers isn't so much 20 strong all at once but more of a rotation of people taking turns guarding said ram so it don't get broke. And / or leaving some behind after the HF is moved incase they do come back to a previously used HV while someone else moves on tracking to next.

You have to split while defenders can choose the best time to gather and kill your few guys guarding.

This is what i have the biggest problem with. IT's a death sentence pure and simple. How do you defend against this. the only way is with larger more complex vaults.

There should be no vaults at all. They are ugly, ugly abominations in their current form. Some strongholds, castles or the like? Yes. The things we have right now? No. Make them all go away.

Sun Tzu man. Knowledge is power.

Be careful with that name around here