Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

[Argus]

Once upon a time, this was true. Nowadays it's getting harder and harder to play those games.

I once remarked 'Word of mouth travels at the speed of light'. This is both good and bad, as the Internet allows dissatisfied customers to trade notes and create a pushback against a company that's sacrificing quality for profit. Of course, companies have pushed back, to the extent that states have had to pass anti-SLAPP statutes to prevent 'lawfare' against unhappy customers voicing their complaints.

There are of course downsides, namely when stupid memes get distributed (anti-vaccination, for example). And it's a bitch to root those out and kill them.

Yes thats correct, arsenic treated wood playground sets. A corperation will sell poisonous playground sets for your children to use because it's a little cheaper and easier to produce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromated_ ... n_exposure

And if your kid is eating the wood you might have bigger problems than how the wood is treated.

The problem I have, more than any other, is this hilarious assertion that 'government' is some kind of superior entity. Bullshit. People who decry corruption in private industry seem utterly blind to the fact that the same kind of corruption spawns in government entities and bureaucracies. And in some ways it is worse, because it is harder to root out. Who watches the watchmen, after all?

I won't deny there are companies who are contemptible. I refuse to shop at Wal-Mart, and vote with my feet and my wallet. But how do you get away from shitty government? Besides moving out of the country, anyways.

[overtyped]

Once upon a time, this was true. Nowadays it's getting harder and harder to play those games.

I once remarked 'Word of mouth travels at the speed of light'. This is both good and bad, as the Internet allows dissatisfied customers to trade notes and create a pushback against a company that's sacrificing quality for profit. Of course, companies have pushed back, to the extent that states have had to pass anti-SLAPP statutes to prevent 'lawfare' against unhappy customers voicing their complaints.

There are of course downsides, namely when stupid memes get distributed (anti-vaccination, for example). And it's a bitch to root those out and kill them.

Yes thats correct, arsenic treated wood playground sets. A corperation will sell poisonous playground sets for your children to use because it's a little cheaper and easier to produce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromated_ ... n_exposure

And if your kid is eating the wood you might have bigger problems than how the wood is treated.

The problem I have, more than any other, is this hilarious assertion that 'government' is some kind of superior entity. Bullshit. People who decry corruption in private industry seem utterly blind to the fact that the same kind of corruption spawns in government entities and bureaucracies. And in some ways it is worse, because it is harder to root out. Who watches the watchmen, after all?

I won't deny there are companies who are contemptible. I refuse to shop at Wal-Mart, and vote with my feet and my wallet. But how do you get away from shitty government? Besides moving out of the country, anyways.

I never said the government was an incorruptable entity, but which lesser of two evils would you choose? the private corperations that profit from selling hazerdous products or a government that doesn't profit from destroying it's own population?
If you sell poisonous materials to your own population, they will get more sickly, thus putting strain on you own economy, but does a private business care if some other business such as government healthcare gets burdened by these sickly people? the answer is obvious.
The public outcry you are speaking of is the result of the governments investigation on these unsafe materials.
Who is going to pay to investigate whether something is safe to use? A private corperation is not going to spend money on figuring out if there products cause long term damage to someone, because that's years away, and they need profit NOW.

[Argus]

Private, every time, and here's why: I can, in the end, choose to -not consume- that company's products. They cannot get my money if I don't spend it.

Meanwhile, you can't get away from government. Try to not pay taxes because you're dissatisfied with government service.

Exposing government corruption and trying to fix it is a bitch and a half. Assuming you're in the U.S., look up 'civil forfeiture' sometime. Still feel like government is 'keeping you safe'? Here's another fun one: The Supreme Court ruled in Warren vs DC that the police are NOT OBLIGATED to protect you the individual.

And it's funny you mention 'who is going to investigate these products'. Have you ever heard of Underwriters Laboratories? They're a private certification firm. Try buying ANY electrical device in the U.S. that doesn't have that UL stamp.

By all means, corporations should be held accountable, but don't spout bullshit about how 'government does it better'. Unless you mean corruption and graft, that is.

[Flame]

Government is good when something is Known. If it's secret, then the government don't have to be good.

Sometimes, the people that do theyr jobs do a really good jobs, and so the evil things comes out. THEN the government will "fix" the evil thing, because is what people ask to him. Is not a matter of "good".

Said this, i'll always like more a government coop than a private one, because some of the people in the government ones are good, and this can start up the mechanism said before.

My hospital system have run out of money and most of the nurses are working for no money. WORKING without any money back. Because they knows well how much important are they.
This is part of the "government", that here is called State. Is the good part and this will always make me say that private is not better than the State.
The privates always search the cheapest way to gain money.

[overtyped]

Private, every time, and here's why: I can, in the end, choose to -not consume- that company's products. They cannot get my money if I don't spend it.

Meanwhile, you can't get away from government. Try to not pay taxes because you're dissatisfied with government service.

Exposing government corruption and trying to fix it is a bitch and a half. Assuming you're in the U.S., look up 'civil forfeiture' sometime. Still feel like government is 'keeping you safe'? Here's another fun one: The Supreme Court ruled in Warren vs DC that the police are NOT OBLIGATED to protect you the individual.

And it's funny you mention 'who is going to investigate these products'. Have you ever heard of Underwriters Laboratories? They're a private certification firm. Try buying ANY electrical device in the U.S. that doesn't have that UL stamp.

By all means, corporations should be held accountable, but don't spout bullshit about how 'government does it better'. Unless you mean corruption and graft, that is.

If you actually read what i wrote you would know I said that private corperations do things more efficiently, You may choose a product but how do you know if it's safe if there is none to regulate and investigate? Like I said a product could cause long term damage to you and you would never know because there is nothing stopping them from doing so.

I personally don't care about privatizing things, I just think privatizing prisons making locking up people a profitable industry is so fucking wrong on so many different levels. Why the fuck do you think the US has 25% of the worlds prisoners with 5% of the population? Even if there was no war on drugs, the private prison industry spends millions every single year lobbying politicians to pass stricter and stricter laws, making people go away, and for longer, for even silly crimes. Look at the damn 3 strike policy. You could steal a 50 cent donut as your 3rd crime and then go away for life. Do you think that law is ever going to be questioned by the politicians that are payed by the industry that has a huge vested interest in putting as many people as they can behind bars?

[Argus]

If you actually read what i wrote you would know I said that private corperations do things more efficiently, You may choose a product but how do you know if it's safe if there is none to regulate and investigate? Like I said a product could cause long term damage to you and you would never know because there is nothing stopping them from doing so.

Please stop beating up that strawman. I need him for the LPs. In an age where, as I said, word of mouth travels at light speed, do you really have problems with not knowing what a product does? Cripes, I can open up Amazon right now and do that. If you need a laugh I recommend checking out the reviews for Haribo sugar free gummi bears.

I personally don't care about privatizing things,

Uh huh.

I just think privatizing prisons making locking up people a profitable industry is so fucking wrong on so many different levels. Why the fuck do you think the US has 25% of the worlds prisoners with 5% of the population? Even if there was no war on drugs, the private prison industry spends millions every single year lobbying politicians to pass stricter and stricter laws, making people go away, and for longer, for even silly crimes. Look at the damn 3 strike policy. You could steal a 50 cent donut as your 3rd crime and then go away for life. Do you think that law is ever going to be questioned by the politicians that are payed by the industry that has a huge vested interest in putting as many people as they can behind bars?

See, you've ALMOST got it. The prison industry isn't generating the political donations, but you're close. Trial lawyers spend shitloads of money. Why? Because it's in their interests to have a sprawling, incoherent, frankly terrifying judicial system. The prison industry is a symptom, not the disease itself.

Couple that with the intellectual inertia (my term for the inability to recognize an error in one's reasoning even after it's been demonstrated) that resists any shift in the war on drugs, and the push to impose more and more criminalization, and you start to realize the whole thing is broken. Spectacularly broken.

[overtyped]

If you actually read what i wrote you would know I said that private corperations do things more efficiently, You may choose a product but how do you know if it's safe if there is none to regulate and investigate? Like I said a product could cause long term damage to you and you would never know because there is nothing stopping them from doing so.

Please stop beating up that strawman. I need him for the LPs. In an age where, as I said, word of mouth travels at light speed, do you really have problems with not knowing what a product does? Cripes, I can open up Amazon right now and do that. If you need a laugh I recommend checking out the reviews for Haribo sugar free gummi bears.

I personally don't care about privatizing things,

Uh huh.

I just think privatizing prisons making locking up people a profitable industry is so fucking wrong on so many different levels. Why the fuck do you think the US has 25% of the worlds prisoners with 5% of the population? Even if there was no war on drugs, the private prison industry spends millions every single year lobbying politicians to pass stricter and stricter laws, making people go away, and for longer, for even silly crimes. Look at the damn 3 strike policy. You could steal a 50 cent donut as your 3rd crime and then go away for life. Do you think that law is ever going to be questioned by the politicians that are payed by the industry that has a huge vested interest in putting as many people as they can behind bars?

See, you've ALMOST got it. The prison industry isn't generating the political donations, but you're close. Trial lawyers spend shitloads of money. Why? Because it's in their interests to have a sprawling, incoherent, frankly terrifying judicial system. The prison industry is a symptom, not the disease itself.

Couple that with the intellectual inertia (my term for the inability to recognize an error in one's reasoning even after it's been demonstrated) that resists any shift in the war on drugs, and the push to impose more and more criminalization, and you start to realize the whole thing is broken. Spectacularly broken.

I don't think I was strawmaning your point.
What do you mean by the prison industry isn't generating political donations? Look it up your self.
I do agree with your point, not only that I have a theory that the US government is so invested in the war on drugs, and spent so many billions of dollars on it, and locked millions of people in prison, that if they were to turn around and say they were wrong, they would fear the publics backlash.
But I think that fear is misguided. When Obama legalized marijuana there was a outcry of happiness, and the public didn't realize how badly they've been screwed by the government locking people up for something that should have been legal in the first place. The same holds true for every drug.

I don't know too much about the trial lawyer business but if a corperation of lawyers got together, I could see them lobbying for anything that would help their company.

[MagicManICT]

Well, what moral difference would it make if it was a private entity "exploiting the situation" or the government? Its still a moral dilemma either way. But we can argue morals all day, since they are subjective. My main point is that the massive amount of people in prison is NOT because of prison privatization. Its because of government, namely the War On Drugs.

I quite agree. Private prisons are nothing more than opportunists to the situation, and once there's a corporation to fill a role, much like a bureaucracy, they're going to do what they can to expand, which would be lobbying for stricter laws, getting people sent to their facilities, etc. Vicious circles are bad and need to be broken, always.

As far as the War on Drugs being the culprit... well, yes, it's the biggest, but there's a whole other level of thinking on incarceration nowadays and puritanical, teetotaler "tough on crime" nonsense.

See, you've ALMOST got it. The prison industry isn't generating the political donations, but you're close. Trial lawyers spend shitloads of money. Why? Because it's in their interests to have a sprawling, incoherent, frankly terrifying judicial system. The prison industry is a symptom, not the disease itself.

Actually, there have been cases where judges have taken kickbacks for sending convicts to specific private facilities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal This is one of many.

[dagrimreefah]

I wouldn't call his points beliefs.

Except, by definition, they ARE beliefs.

You don't seem to understand private corperations at all, and think they are the most wonderful thing in the world.

You don't seem to understand my view at all, and think politicians are the most wonderful thing in the world. I can ad hominem too. Besides, private enterprise isn't perfect. Nothing in this world is perfect. But its sure a lot more NATURAL and a shit load better than this communist interventionist nanny state you'd like to live in.

You are certainly right, a private corperation is way more efficient than the government.

Except when they lobby, which is a bad thing. But its government who doles out the favors. Also lol you say I don't understand corporations at all, yet you can't even spell the fuckin' word correctly...

The problem with that is they will always use the cheapest and easiest methods. For example chromated copper arsenate playground sets. Yes thats correct, arsenic treated wood playground sets. A corperation will sell poisonous playground sets for your children to use because it's a little cheaper and easier to produce.

Yeah because that's always happened and history. CONSTANTLY. We needed government around forever to protect us from those big evil corporations giving us exploding devices and poisonous products. Give me a fucking break. Also, like any corporation would be STUPID enough to continuously sell something that's poisonous.... YEAH, THEY'RE GOING TO STAY IN BUSINESS FOR QUITE A WHILE.......... These are the oldest, most juvenile and regurgitated arguments FOR government and frankly I get a bit jaded having to point out how (a) historically inaccurate they are, since this abyssmal fantasy land where poisonous swingsets and exploding juicers are being sold everywhere just didn't exist and (b)In a real free market, ONE WHERE IS NO GIANT NANNY STATE TO DOLE OUT FAVORS FOR SPECIAL CORPORATIONS, businesses have to compete with eachother and therefore the last PR disaster they would want in a competition-rich environment is to be accused of selling a dangerous product. Only when you inject government and their favors for lobbyists do you get less competition, and thus less caring about selling poisonous products.

Also, the key difference, and most important, between government and private enterprise is that private enterprise operates based off of profits, which are achieved by frugal management of resources and appeal to the consumer.. Government actually operates off of LOSSES: And yes, it does hire and contract private workers, but the way the government finances these firms completely throws things like prices and profits out of the window. Government contracted firms or gov't bureaus themselves will actually find ways to prolong projects and devise ways to complete them as inefficiently as possible. The reason: there is no price structure; When the contractor/bureau is asked how much money they need for their budget, they can literally state any price they want (within reason). This is because the money government has to dole out HAS BEEN STOLEN via taxation, or has been simply stroked into existence by a banker at a computer at our central bank, the Federal Reserve. Its not earned, its not a scarce resource. There are no prices, just large sums of cash pushed around to get what you want done, which usually achieves you a vote in the district where you pushed money and jobs into(money that had to come from somewhere else). See the difference? I sure fucking hope so, because that was long winded.

The government has no incentive to destroy it's own population, but for a private business that kind of practice is very much lucrative, like with private prisons lobbying for more "customers"

The government doesn't give a fuck about the health of its population at all. The government is millions of people. Local governments. State governments. City governments. Its impartial. You have this idea that government loves you or something, like its your mother. Dude, its a scam. They tell you that so they can keep taking your money (taxation) for not actually doing anything. They don't do shit. They're lawyers and politicians. Of course they're going to tell you they only want to protect you and keep you safe. Of course they're going to make you believe they care about you. They don't. They don't even know you. THey just want your money. Scratch that: they want as many peoples' money as possible for the least amount of effort.

Ok, hold on right there. I know what you're going to say, "how can ANYONE (except for evil corporations) possibly want as much money as possible for as little effort as possible? Why would any politician want that? ..................................

Like I said, don't get me wrong. There are shitty corporations out there. Free market capitalism isn't perfect. NOTHING is perfect. But I'd rather trust in a system that has millions and millions of actors determining the outcome of my economy than a few thousand in Washington DC.

Oh oh, and as for "dur the private corporations fund the war on drugs, durhur!" Please, show me the STATISTICS and cite the resources SHOWING ME that ONLY private corporations are the funders for the war on drugs. No doubt there are a few corporations that pour funding into it, because its profitable for them (security firms, etc). And to hell with them. But just fucking ask yourself, WHY AND HOW DID IT BECOME SO PROFITABLE?

But really, the major perpetuator and "funder" for the war on drugs (there is no actual 'funding') is actually local and state police. They make a KILLING off of it (see asset forfeiture laws). Not to mention senators, govenors, congressmen, etc (usually of the southwestern states) who get giant bribes by Mexican and Central American drug cartels. Was it private corporations who started this "War On Drugs", which claims 3 out of every 4 prisoners?


(from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/10/war-on-drugs-prisons-infographic_n_4914884.html)

So my point still stands. The prisons are overcrowded because of the Federal Government's "War On Drugs". Not because of that "EVIL CAPITALISM, OOH SPOOKY, PEOPLE WANTING TO DO BUSINESS, EVIIILLLL!!!".


Oh yeah one more thing about the copper arsenate plated swingsets: You do understand highschool chemistry, right? Like, sodium and chlorine are poisonous by themselves, but when combined make salt. You were taught that shit in school, weren't you?

[Flame]

Actually the fact in my state says that government is thousands ways better than privates.
And i have really a bad politicy system here.

So, why in FACT the public mechanism is better than the privates ones? Because the ones that works in the public, have a fixed payement. They don't have to use the cheaper stuff. They don't NEED to optimize times to gain more money.
They are already payed. What this brings?
1 - The bad thing is that often there is inefficenty. Because the general attitude is more relaxed.
2 - The good thing is that ther's no reason to ask to you to do unwanted therapy, useless cures or other Very Expansive things, because NO ONE is going to gain from this cheats. The people that works here, are not forced by the private system to cheat you, to squeeze from you all the money they can, to give you poisonous food just because is cheaper. There is no incentive on this kind of things. (and thus, sometimes it can happen when people are corrupted, as always)

Honestly i can forgive some laziness, when i have to choose between legal criminals, aka privates, and idealist dudes.


All this have to be put in the right time, anyway. I mean, we are living the worse economical rules of evee. the TOTAL FREEDOM.
So, the legal criminals.

If we was living in a more ruled economic system, there whould probably be more "good privates" with a sort of etic on what they do, because be a criminal could be a big loss of money.
As for now, have etic and be private is a contradiction. Etic is a loss of money.

Too easy to say that communism is evil. There are many things that communist have improved and that we all are enjoing it without know it.
We should know it a little better, maybe, and see what was usefull and what was definitly wrong. Do you thingk that your "right to work" have comed up randomly for some weird astral coincidence?
Lol. We really don't know what communist was. We know only what a dictature was (some years later the pure communist) . And that's all we know.

I suggest to not open this page of history, because no one have ever studied it. No school in the "free economic system" teach the communism or the other system.
They only teach general bullshit and wars. I strongly miss the "modern story" in the school system, sigh!


Ps: the free market have a dogma. The dogma is "All the users will judge the privates and will choose the best ones, so the system will fix himself"
Lol? Look at the reality.
CAN I CHECK 7 BILLIONS OF DUDES IN THE WORLD AND CHOOSE THE BEST ONE? Can i KNOW EXACTLY what is right and wrong on a food? Do i have to be a perfect doctor-historical-artist-designer-and any other ob in the world at the same time?
CAN
THE
USER
Change the system?

If he was a superman, maybe.
Who did this free market was a mental bugged one. You can't ask to a HUMAN to know everything he needs to know to check the private works.
This is crazyer than the worste communistic ideal of society and is SO easy to bug. it just needs a low culture and the game is done!
The fuck, i can't believe that someone really trust this shit as "possible". Ahahahaha! XDD