Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[Potjeh]

That has not been the case thus far, though. Sufficient preparation advantage can completely eliminate the other variables. Notable exception was movement combat which was completely based on twitch reaction skill, but you have removed that, and rightfully so, because it eliminated preparation (but not luck, because server lag could screw you no matter how good your reflexes).

[jorb]

What you can perhaps argue is that the character value difference span in which skill matters is too narrow. What you cannot argue is that skill doesn't matter, because it certainly does.

[jordancoles]

Bringing this up again...
I've spoken with you (Jorb) and Loftar about this several times now, and I've posted it in a few different places.
Every time I got a response it was "I'll look into it" or "I'll talk to Jorb about it" but nothing has been done/looked into yet

Movement hits aren't even my main concern. I just want to see consistency with it, which we currently do not have.

My biggest concerns with combat are that swords were nerfed down into useless trash while b12s were left completely unmodified and that shield stance currently does not work when hit moving.

This is likely and overlook but it's one that has made MC fighting completely unrealistic.

When hit moving in shield stance, the weight is then factored over into UA defense instead of MC. This means that being hit moving will be a death sentence for anyone who has not stacked up UA as well.

I assume we didn't notice this last world because a movement hit meant 0 defense no matter what, but since movement hits have been nurfed for UA fighters, it leaves an unfair advantage to those who simply stack up on it.

At the moment you will need around 500 ua and 1.7k armor class to be able to tank a movement hit from a competitive character.
This means that in order to survive and be a decent MC sword-and-shield support fighter (I say support because it's nearly impossible to use a soldier's sword to actually do damage through someone's armor) you will need to have at least 500 UA.

Before you can even consider using shield stance (which was originally an easier alternative to UA with the loss of maneuvers) in fights, you will need to get 500 unarmed combat to make sure that you will not go straight down in a fight.

Assume that you have 300 ua and 5000 MC.
With the current system, one miss-click and your 5000 melee combat-- your 6250 defensive weight while in shield stance (5000*1.25) is now useless.

Hit standing, you will take the hit as if you have 6250 ua.
Hit moving, you are essentially a 300 ua character with no MC what-so-ever to help you.

This is very broken in my opinion.

Also, with a top q soldier's sword and over 1.5k str, I would likely still only be doing around 300-400 over armor class right now.
Most fighters will not have a max q (for world 7) sword on them because of the effort involved and the average fighter will have 600-800 strength with full barbarianism slider.

This makes swords useless for doing damage aside from a few select instances:
1) The person you are fighting has virtually no armor on
2) The person you are fighting has very very low constitution (The average for good fighters being over 1000 hhp)
3) The person you are fighting is currently at 0 defense which would allow your sting/val strike to go through for true damage the same as a movement hit last world would have

I am not opposed to the ua changes when it comes to being hit moving. Being 1-shotted is not fun game-play, and stats SHOULD matter.
But I am not happy with how MC fighting has been nurfed so badly for no real reason.

MC fighting was a completely different style of combat and in my opinion it was one of the best things seatribe had ever done for Haven.
The style is now dead if you're talking about 1v1 situations and the only real draw is for lowering the defense bars of others so that your friends with real weapons can finish the job. This promotes ganks and has done far more harm than good.

If you are worried than UA will become obsolete with this change, then why not return sword damage to its previous glory and leave the movement hit to default to UA.
At least it won't be a b12 wielding circle jerk

[Potjeh]

It matters in an extremely limited number of cases. It should matter in virtually all cases if you want it to be a good game.

To illustrate, I was in a village with Stickman, a heavy duty grinder. Early on, when our UA was within ~20% of each other's, I won 50-60% of spars. Later on, when he had more than double, I won 0%.

[jorb]

Fair enough. It's mostly that we're kind of building from a loose scratch anyway, so I'm not really sure there's much to discuss yet.

[Potjeh]

Now is just the time to discuss it, though. After you've already invested all the work into implementing new combat, it'll be too late for any major changes.

[jorb]

It's never too late for major changes.

[jorb]

What is it you perceive us to be in disagreement on?

[Potjeh]

Well could you then pretty please entertain the idea of implementing the delta cap? We can talk theory till we turn blue, but only experiment will show what's what. You've tried the current way for 5+ years with mixed results, so why not try and see if the other way is better? If it's worse you can always pull a major change and revert

[Kaios]

I haven't been reading, so I have no idea, but I found it really disrespectful to not even answer loftar's completely logical and sincere question after shooting him down for not already knowing the answer. I do insist you actually present him with one of the gems you speak of.

http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=199
http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1039
http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24229
http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=35893
http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31627

All relevant to how mid-game and late-game should/could/would progress in some manner. Note how many of the issues discussed several years ago still remain today.

Fair enough. It's mostly that we're kind of building from a loose scratch anyway, so I'm not really sure there's much to discuss yet.

Well, give us something to discuss? Enlighten us to your visions and what you have planned, I agree there really is no point in discussion if everything we are arguing about is going to be changed in some way anyways but how are we to know what is and isn't going to happen if neither you or Loftar talk about your intentions?