Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[jordancoles]

Remove call down thunder.
Or at least only make it work on animals.
All of haven combat problems will be fixed.

Do explain, because this only amplifies the current combat problems tenfold.

I think he's trying to say without thunder, people would actually have to right up to each other in order to pull off moves, making it more, I guess, realistic, and removing long chases with people just thundering all day, though it would probably backfire and make combat even more trash I feel.

Death or glory > dash/fan the flames > evil eye > break away for cooldown > DoG + slide/charge/dash to 6 IP > break away > group gets 4-6 IP and gank begins > victim runs forever anyways

[Potjeh]

The issue with Salem isn't that they haven't started implementing these things, it's that they implemented them a quarter of the way and then moved on to something different (case in point - purity). Salem was just horribly rushed, presumably due to publisher issues. I, and other alpha testers, told them it was nowhere near ready for release, but I guess they had to push it out or lose it. After that it was just mayhem because there was never enough time to really complete any aspect of the game properly. I still think there was a lot of diamonds in the rough there, though.

[jordancoles]

I still think there was a lot of diamonds in the rough there, though.

Please make a list of the diamonds in the rough and clearly point it out to the devs here because I feel like they think some of the diamonds in the rough are actually flops

[Kaios]

i give up, kaios. suit yourself and hold your grudge forever, pretending they did nothing.

I'm not saying they did nothing and I have no grudge to hold, what Potjeh just said is exactly how I feel.

One of those diamonds in the rough he mentioned is likely the farming system which I feel was the most extensively thought out system they introduced to Salem and of course none of the ideas they implemented were really all that bad, it's just they never resolved the same issue we face here which is that perpetual feeling that everything you do is just a boring grind along a single never-ending path.

You also have to bear in mind that they have sold Salem now and I find it unlikely they'll be imitating with 100% similarity any system that is to remain in Salem with its new developers.

[banok]

Last week was spent building high quality weapons using their superior blacksmith stats.

This is not actually what you're saying, but thinking about weapons strikes a chord with something I was thinking about last week.

In the context of "grinding weapons", it is interesting to note that, even if I can keep grinding q93 swords given a certain character and asset configuration, that won't help me make a better weapon than that no matter how many q93 swords I make. To produce that better weapon instead, I may have to do something more qualitative than to just keep grinding swords, like venturing out to find better clay or ore to make a q107 sword, or perhaps try to make a B12 axe instead, or something else.

What I was thinking about was in the context of food. I was considering if it isn't a bit retarded that I can, theoretically speaking, just eat ~250,000 blueberries in order to produce a character with 500 INT, and whether it wouldn't be more fun if I had to keep advancing towards qualitatively different food (and/or more variety, or something) to keep advancing, somehow (and we already have some plans baking for Haven 2 that aren't entirely dissimilar from that).

This is just a rant, really, because I'm still not sure just what conclusions I should be drawing from that, but perhaps someone found it interesting.

I did. thanks for posting.

doesn't weapon quality have a theorectical hard cap, and also quality effects have steep diminishing returns (or non linear multipliers). these differentiate weapon grind to character grind more than the qualitative activities, imo.

tool/weapon grind is fun. character grind is this never ending pain train, both because it's effect scale more than sword q and its progression isn't finite like sword q.

since i'm under the impression you want to keep endless character "progression", I think your idea will delay not fix the issue. But perhaps it wasn't fully explained or I didn't understand, for alas I do not own a horse. I am but a mere plebeian.

[Danno]

This is a contentious, large and highly abstract point and could be discussed (and has been, multiple times) at length in itself. You can't just say "village management tools" and think that's a good idea, because it could mean almost anything.

Well, the main thing is village alliances. Verbal alliances are a fun part of H&H, but we're forced to keep our doors closed. Think about it like a province/state: several villages and cities united under the same principles, rules, etc. (with small deviations here and there). With tools to officially declare an alliance, we could visit and interact with allied villages without needing a land claim over the whole village to override it.

Give us more things to spend authority on, such as increased paving and rock chipping speeds. To prevent abuse, you can make it only work if the paved path has roots within the village boundaries and the connected area is at least 2x2. This leads to my next point, making alliances more viable. Two villages can use the paving bonus to build a proper road between their villages. Another thing to spend authority on could be a village maintenance fee, e.g. the idol drains 20k LP daily and then nothing within the village decays. Then people can manage their villages better, like everyone claiming their own home individually instead of hearthblocking or otherwise going to unnecessary lengths to maintain their privacy.

• Give us allied bonuses, such as 5x move speed when following milestones on a paved road that connects two villages (doesn't work if engaged in combat).
• Keys are meaningless for village gates and key alts will never stop, let us spend a large sum of authority once to create keyless entry for village members.
• Give us an additional chat channel for all villages within an alliance, or even merge it in with the existing village chat to encourage more unity.

For all of the above, your chief or lawspeaker should be able to set permissions for your allies. Permission to speed down the highway, permission to interact with the village, permission to keyless entry, etc. For some options, you could also toggle permission for your own villagers to unlock certain features. For example, the chief and lawspeaker are barely ever online, but the ambitious villagers want to pave some roads. A villager walks over to the idol, enables the paving/chipping bonus, it drains 20k LP, and they enjoy playing the game instead of wasting what adds up to hours of time literally sitting there watching the hourglass.

More roads, more travel, more interaction, less tedious gameplay, more fun overall. Village management tools. It'd be easy to think of many more bonuses that could apply within the village and between allied villages. Not competitive bonuses, per se, mainly just things to make building and maintaining villages less tedious - and making alliances not only work better, but encouraging players to make true alliances in the first place.

If teleportation is more restricted and if resources are more localized (e.g. crop growth viability)

To reiterate, player skill is a central element of any game.

Of any good game, at least, yes, and every combat system we have ever designed have been designed precisely with this ambition in mind that skill should matter at least as much as preparation and luck.
What you can perhaps argue is that the character value difference span in which skill matters is too narrow. What you cannot argue is that skill doesn't matter, because it certainly does.

Isn't that what he's been arguing the whole time? The combat system is clever and does require skill when your UA is similar to your opponent's, but the stats override the skill requirement. If you had 49 UA and I had 400 UA, do you think you'd be able to win the fight? It wouldn't matter if you knew the combat system like the back of your hand, I'd steamroll you as long as I have some basic understanding of the combat system. If you had 49 UA and my max delta advantage was limiting my UA to 100, I'd still have an advantage from all my grinding (which you guys seem to want), but I'd lose the fight because you know the system a lot more thoroughly and have more experience.
Why is this being considered inferior to the current system?

To make combat fair, you just need to limit the stat advantages players can have, be it UA, agility, or armour quality. It should be that if two men are armed with swords, they are both at danger, but the more skillful swordsman will win.

Why is it when someone suggests an idea they react as if the idea being suggested is set in stone?

I agree entirely with this. Suggestions shouldn't be taken so literally, they should mainly just serve as inspiration for a better system. The curiosity system not only made the grind problem far less tedious, but it also made the game more fun overall; I maintain my faith that Jorb/Loftar want this game to be fun and will make it more fun as long as they aren't dead set on traditional RPG grinding.

[TeckXKnight]

doesn't weapon quality have a theorectical hard cap, and also quality effects have steep diminishing returns (or non linear multipliers). these differentiate weapon grind to character grind more than the qualitative activities, imo.

Weapons work on a square root curve while stats have a linear progression, so stats will take the advantage over weapons eventually, theoretically.
I don't believe that weapons have a theoretical hardcap, as you can recycle iron over and over again, making higher quality materials, crafting tools, and eventually tools of war. You can grind higher quality iron/wrought/steel for as long as there is iron in the world.

[Massa]

The last 5 pages between Potjeh, Danno, Kowis, and Tonky have been the defining moments in tl;dr.

[Xcom]

This is the problem with Jorb or Loftar even coming to these forums listening to idiotic suggestions. Same thing happened W6 end when they started to listen to combat changes being suggested. The most vocal individuals that basically have left the game but somehow find time to linger in these forums spew bunch of retarded ideas on how to fix the ultimate haven problems. Just to humor there retarded ideas, lets project a what if scenario.

Haven 2 is out and the following dream come true suggestions that was repeating on these forums have now been included in the game.
A hard cap of Q500 or level 500 through the whole game have been set. Nothing can go above it. Loftar have also found ways to automatically detect alting and permaban these individuals that attempt it. No bots or alts basically.

The world is now 8 months old after start and the average crop quality gives an average of Q100 baked pies and Q140 cheese. The common LP per hour of hearthlings are now around 25k LP per hour. The armor class that can now be crafted gives around 1600 AC. Ranged combat is still broken vs well armored targets and same goes for swords.

500 levels in any stats needs 12.5 milion LP meaning 500h of constant curio studying. Gist is 20 days of constant curio studying will grant you maximum cap on a skill.

500 in the following STR, CON, AGI will need the following amount of foods. 35 cubs of Apple pie for CON, 50 cubs of Creamy Camembert for both AGI and CHA and 20 cubs of BBC for STR. Basically to reach the cap you need 100 cubs of the mixed foods listed.

After 1 month of constant gameplay any experienced player can now reach the cap. But the problem is, WTF to do now?
A. Quit the game.
B. PvP and die to go back to 20 days of grinding to the cap again.
C. Build more of the same crap you don't even need.

No more need to have large fields of crops, just make enough crops of any kind to make the exact amount to reach the cap.
No need for curios so trade is gone.
No alting so you cant work on a second character after you reached the cap.

Sadly we lack PvE content that other larger MMO games have. This means we are stuck either quality grinding the crops, that we basically don't need, as per normal or just plain quit the game.

[Danno]

The last 5 pages between Potjeh, Danno, Kowis, and Tonky have been the defining moments in tl;dr.

It's called a discussion. There's more to developing a game than saying "Let's have characters, a world to explore, and rare PvP." There's more to improving a game than saying "Everything is perfect the way it is."

After 1 month of constant gameplay any experienced player can now reach the cap. But the problem is, WTF to do now?

There wouldn't be a problem if the game encouraged and had better tools for player interaction. We need challenges and things that make us think, not time-consuming chores that only serve to test a human's patience.
Keep in mind this is a multiplayer game, and multiplayer games tend to be more fun when more people are playing together. Grinding is a solo activity, so it doesn't make sense for that to be Haven's main gameplay aspect.