Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[Kaios]

This sure has been a lot of words that will ultimately have little effect on the development of Hafen.

Very likely although earlier an argument had just taken place regarding whether or not they actually listen to any ideas, another reason I don't understand Tonky's stance on this, considering she just tried to tell me that they do in fact listen to the suggestions players have to offer and even gave examples yet in the same thread is trying to claim that no one should suggest anything.

Makes much sense!

[Jackard]

Very likely although earlier an argument had just taken place regarding whether or not they actually listen to any ideas, another reason I don't understand Tonky's stance on this, considering she just tried to tell me that they do in fact listen to the suggestions players have to offer

Instilling doubt there only takes someone whispering "Salem's Camera"

[TeckXKnight]

The situation with Salem's camera continues to perplex me. It was universally hated because it caused vertigo, nausea, and was just generally clunky and ugly. Yet JLo defended it through thick and thin despite the very vocal displeasure players had with it.

I'm actually not kidding with the nausea part. I believe Loftar once commented that you'd get used to it after awhile and the nausea would stop.

[Danno]

So we are supposed to do what exactly when the cap is reached? I didn't see you explain it other then "player interaction" and "challenges and things that make us think".

I already explained my ideas on increasing player interaction (village management tools and localizing crops). As for challenges that make you think, PvP would be one of them if grinding UA up to 1000 didn't mean "win by default when fighting casuals". There would also be more challenges involved with maintaining good relations with nearby villages since people wouldn't be able to isolate themselves and be fully self-sufficient.

I'm still hearing only faction based advantage and pvp heavy bias. If you really want those advantages then I expect equal bonus to those who are hermits or small groups. Giving advantages to a village is fine as most hermits and small groups form their own and can access them. When you talk alliances and such not so much.

I don't support caps. It only serves to limit play and creativity. If you can not or will not adapt to someone having a higher advantage its not the games fault. I know there are people better than me at things and that is fine. No one can be best at everything. I certainly do not support bringing the game down to a level so I can win.

Open ended design allows much greater personalization and creativity.

As far as stats are concerned... Great personalization, yes. Greater creativity, no. Isolating yourself to grind works strongly against creativity, especially when working on creative projects is seen as something that will put you behind in the quality race.

Yes, it is the game's fault that it is literally impossible for me to catch up to someone else and be able to have a chance at competing with them. Some games have caps; everyone reaches the cap and this problem doesn't exist - everyone is capable of catching up and having a chance. I'm not trying to alter the game so that it increases my chances of winning, I'm trying to have it adjusted so that there is at least a possibility that I can win if I am more skilled than my opponent. It's the people at the top who are trying to keep the game at a level where only they can win. I'm pushing for fairness, not trying to give myself an unreasonable edge.

Factions already have exclusive advantages, such as q70+ clay. The advantages I proposed mainly encourage hermits and small groups to band together (while keeping their sovereignty). It gives them bonuses for treating Haven as a multiplayer game, though they would still be entirely free to play solo if they really want to.

What a nice language from mod...

He's not the first mod to be rude or use foul language.

When I read some of these comments I honestly don't know what game some of you are playing, I suspect, as LadyV implies, it is because your game play is pvp based and therefore you just rush to 'grind' the numbers but, if you then don't leave your walls to put it into practice because you are scared of losing your chars then seriously, lol, why play at all?

There is so much more to Haven than number raising, you face plenty of challenges from the day you spawn and how is there not player interaction when the majority of you live in villages, raid, trade and fight? I see other players all the time so there are obviously a lot who aren't just pvp based and do leave their walls, I'm honestly not surprised the game is boring to you if you just sit inside and raise numbers, lol, what do you expect?!

It seems to me you place your own limitations on your game.

P.s. I like Potjeh too. :

I want to play the way you do, and I actually do. I've never built a brickwall before, I always carry my village's keys with me, I don't wear strong armour, and my stats are mediocre. Whenever I'd see a stranger, I'd say "hi" instead of teleporting away, though I'd stay cautious. The harsh permadeath penalty makes others too afraid to do the same, and it makes it a very unrewarding experience when you can lose hundreds of hours of work just because you decided to have fun and interact a bit. Of course, with this playstyle, I'd never dare to raid someone else's home since for all I know, they could have 500+ UA, making it impossible for me to even survive the fight.

I don't have the big faction experience like Potjeh, but when I had villages with around 10 or so players, interaction was kinda minimal. A couple people would run off to hunt, I'd stay in the village and take care of all the boring farming and quality grinding, others would find curiosities for themselves, others would go on an adventure and come back to eat the food I prepared. This game punishes you for playing with each other, which further drives everyone apart. Let's say you, me, and 5 of my friends go foraging and we all have 2000 per*exp. We all see the same forageables, so it becomes a contest of who can get to it first, plus it takes 6 times as long for everyone to get a full inventory of goods.

When I play, I do more than grind, but the options are severely limited. I paved pixel art in random mudflats, I beat boars with unarmed combat since it's more fun and challenging than ranged combat, I decorated my village, I built the game of checkers (wickers vs. birch baskets), organized my cupboards, invited strangers to join my village, built milestone roads, etc. The game is designed for grinding, though. It's what everyone is encouraged to do as "end-game content", and the things I listed can only keep you busy for so long before you get bored or run out of things to do.

making skill play a bigger part is something I'm all for but not at the price of capping.

being a pure pvp player doesn't equal a pure pvp game.

Either combat needs to be completely redone or the delta advantage needs a cap on it, as Potjeh suggested. The delta advantage is the sole aspect of combat that makes skill unnecessary for high stat characters.

This is a full PvP game where anyone can engage anyone in combat at any location, even if it's within your own village walls. That said, it's pretty important that PvP is properly balanced so that high stat characters can't just play god with your character, deciding whether you live or die at a whim.

And that's all you took from what I've said .......... ?

Your stories are fine, but I think you're missing the point of what Potjeh is saying. I understand that your mentality is one way to get through the game, but not everyone is satisfied with the idea of hiding from fights or accepting that someone else can so easily decide your fate. The main thing here is that you are putting hundreds of hours of work on the line here - not something you want someone else to be able to rob from you just because they did more senseless grinding than you did.

My first question is how to make the game interesting when it is a matter of logging in alts and setting them to work in absentia. You'd really end up playing a game where you run a tribe, not a character, so it would very much change the original feel of the game.

You just described an RTS game. Your ideas are good natured, but sound like it would still just be grinding/tedium.

Measures like these don't fully eliminate backstabbing and tantrums but they reduce a lot of uncertainty.

There should also be more "unskilled tasks" that aren't shit boring. So that new villagers have time to pick up and find their place without quitting after a day or two because making 10000 bricks wasn't their idea of fun.

Not knowing when someone might backstab you is a big part of the fun in this game. There should be no 100% safe zones anywhere. I think your village management tool ideas would be helpful, though. Players should still be able to bypass them with criminal acts, though they'd leave a scent, of course. These tools shouldn't force players to play a certain way, it'd be more like the rules/laws of the village.

I agree about needing tasks for newb villagers. They need a way to help the general cause without being treated like slaves.

I’ve quickly created tree diagram as an example of how skill progression could work:



Obviously this diagram is incomplete. Reaching these values shown in the diagram simply makes that skill available to be bought/learned, it does not automatically mean reaching that value suddenly unlocks an area of your brain that pours out this new knowledge.

A proficiency system could be good, but it needs to be carefully planned since it could easily turn into a trainwreck. The players shouldn't feel punished for repeating the same task, but should instead feel rewarded for doing different things. Making someone do a bunch of obscure tasks inbetween building a house or wall could just be annoying. I understand the intent is to force people to stop grinding and do something new, but, as Tonky argues, it could just be another level of grinding if you have to do some filler tasks before you can get back to the main task. It's different from quality grinding, but still not the solution to the problem.

[Amanda44]

Amanda44 wrote:And that's all you took from what I've said .......... ?

Your stories are fine, but I think you're missing the point of what Potjeh is saying. I understand that your mentality is one way to get through the game, but not everyone is satisfied with the idea of hiding from fights or accepting that someone else can so easily decide your fate. The main thing here is that you are putting hundreds of hours of work on the line here - not something you want someone else to be able to rob from you just because they did more senseless grinding than you did.

No, I wasn't and I don't see quite how you took from my 'stories' that I accept that someone can easily decide my fate, the point of the RIP recount was to show the exact opposite, I didn't hide from the troll or the guys on the mudflat. Ofc I value my char and am gutted when it gets killed or robbed or w/e and at the time I do feel it to be unfair, regardless of the situation, but it's not all that I play Haven for, I enjoy the survival aspect and that includes dealing with those who are stronger or more aggressive, I enjoy the crafting and building, the feeling of making your progress with the raising of your crops, your tools, your char, etc. I don't see Haven as a boring grind fest like you seem to and don't isolate myself away to grind even though I understand a stronger character is probably going to try and defeat me in some way at some point, the same as most other games. My response is to make that harder and attempt to prevent it. I was simply trying to express 'why' I don't see it in the same way that you do and that the numbers don't prevent me from playing and enjoying the game.

Just because I don't agree with you and I don't have a ton of in depth solutions to the other issues doesn't mean I can't express how I feel about an issue, the reasons why I disagree and why I don't see it in the same way as you. It does give me satisfaction to see my stats rise and my quality rise, my tools improve, etc. It does feel like an achievement and I like it that way.

Tbh, life is too short .........

[LadyV]

As far as stats are concerned... Great personalization, yes. Greater creativity, no. Isolating yourself to grind works strongly against creativity, especially when working on creative projects is seen as something that will put you behind in the quality race.

Yes, it is the game's fault that it is literally impossible for me to catch up to someone else and be able to have a chance at competing with them. Some games have caps; everyone reaches the cap and this problem doesn't exist - everyone is capable of catching up and having a chance. I'm not trying to alter the game so that it increases my chances of winning, I'm trying to have it adjusted so that there is at least a possibility that I can win if I am more skilled than my opponent. It's the people at the top who are trying to keep the game at a level where only they can win. I'm pushing for fairness, not trying to give myself an unreasonable edge.

Factions already have exclusive advantages, such as q70+ clay. The advantages I proposed mainly encourage hermits and small groups to band together (while keeping their sovereignty). It gives them bonuses for treating Haven as a multiplayer game, though they would still be entirely free to play solo if they really want to.

Danno pl;ease read what you are saying. You say you are pushing for fairness and not an unreasonable edge. Yet you want to install caps in order to catch up to people. You want to win if your more skilled than your opponent.

Setting a cap means those who have played longer will have less to achieve, their time spent is meaningless beyond a certain point. You are essentially saying I dont care if your ahead of me and put more time into things I want to compete and compete quickly. Quite simply my answer is no. If you are behind someone and they are investing as much or more than you in rising that is not the games fault. Im not saying its your fault either.

Whether you join the game late or have a poor start the reason for being behind is unimportant. Erasing an advantage someone has by playing longer or investing more is not right. They earned their position! Is it a fair fight if you get into combat with them? No probably not. It's still not the point though.

Changing the rules to limit those ahead of you stiffles growth, personalization, and creativity. If I can not achieve anything higher whats the point? I have played in games where things were capped. You know what? Most of those people get bored, drop out or never come back. Id personally like to see Haven grow and expand rather than be the flash of excitement for a while then they have achieved it all and leave.

You say you want to encourage hermits to band together and do multiplayer things. Might I suggest maybe they dont want to. Maybe they enjoy their solitude. Or maybe even they already do but you have no idea of that.

Ill say this right here and now. You can talk till your blue in the face and I shall not change my stance on advantage. If people have played longer, worked harder, or whatever to get where they are it is a just position. Faction advantages or not they got there. Whether it was solo work or group they earned it.

If you want to talk about making armors or weapons more fair, allowing greater player maneuvering, new combat stance...fine. Setting limits on players just so you can catch up, no. Accept someone out there is always going to be better, faster, more equiped.

If your talking of competing with a faction, then make your own or join another. One vs. a group is not a viable strategy in most cases. Sure you can flee but thats not what you were talking of.

[Danno]

No, I wasn't and I don't see quite how you took from my 'stories' that I accept that someone can easily decide my fate, the point of the RIP recount was to show the exact opposite, I didn't hide from the troll or the guys on the mudflat. Ofc I value my char and am gutted when it gets killed or robbed or w/e and at the time I do feel it to be unfair, regardless of the situation, but it's not all that I play Haven for, I enjoy the survival aspect and that includes dealing with those who are stronger or more aggressive, I enjoy the crafting and building, the feeling of making your progress with the raising of your crops, your tools, your char, etc. I don't see Haven as a boring grind fest like you seem to and don't isolate myself away to grind even though I understand a stronger character is probably going to try and defeat me in some way at some point, the same as most other games. My response is to make that harder and attempt to prevent it. I was simply trying to express 'why' I don't see it in the same way that you do and that the numbers don't prevent me from playing and enjoying the game.

Just because I don't agree with you and I don't have a ton of in depth solutions to the other issues doesn't mean I can't express how I feel about an issue, the reasons why I disagree and why I don't see it in the same way as you. It does give me satisfaction to see my stats rise and my quality rise, my tools improve, etc. It does feel like an achievement and I like it that way.

Tbh, life is too short .........

I don't think we're entirely on different pages here. I know you said you don't just lie down with your tail between your legs, you stand proudly to the bitter end. Even so, you know that you're going to die and there's nothing you can do to stop it. Regardless of whether you died miserably or honourably, the truth of the matter is that the high stat character just decided your fate and you had no say in it. Having an outrageous combat advantage from grinding promotes this - supports the idea that high stat characters can toy with the lives of casuals. I know you disagree with a lot of my other ideas, and that's fine, but can't we agree that it's a bad thing for high stat characters to treat your effort like it's worthless and stomp all over it, forcing you to start over?

Haven has lots of great things, there are many fun and interesting features. However, when you've crafted and built everything you need/want, the game boils down to one question: what's next? The answer is the end-game. There are still other little things you can do, like going hunting or searching for curios now and then, but it's universally accepted that Haven's end-game is the quality grind. Hunting is laughable since people either have insane stats or they're untouchable with ranged combat. Searching for curios is a great feature, but it becomes pointless when you have 8 cupboards full of'em, so that leaves us with the quality grind. Doing the same daily chores to increase your item or crop's quality by 1 or 2 quality points every day even though it makes no immediately visible difference in the item's effectiveness.

Danno pl;ease read what you are saying. You say you are pushing for fairness and not an unreasonable edge. Yet you want to install caps in order to catch up to people. You want to win if your more skilled than your opponent.

Setting a cap means those who have played longer will have less to achieve, their time spent is meaningless beyond a certain point. You are essentially saying I dont care if your ahead of me and put more time into things I want to compete and compete quickly. Quite simply my answer is no. If you are behind someone and they are investing as much or more than you in rising that is not the games fault. Im not saying its your fault either.

Whether you join the game late or have a poor start the reason for being behind is unimportant. Erasing an advantage someone has by playing longer or investing more is right. They earned their position! Is it a fair fight if you get into combat with them? No probably not. It's still not the point though.

Changing the rules to limit those ahead of you stiffles growth, personalization, and creativity. If I can not achieve anything higher whats the point? I have played in games where things were capped. You know what? Most of those people get bored, drop out or never come back. Id personally like to see Haven grow and expand rather than be the flash of excitement for a while then they have achieved it all and leave.

You say you want to encourage hermits to band together and do multiplayer things. Might I suggest maybe they dont want to. Maybe they enjoy their solitude. Or maybe even they already do but you have no idea of that.

Ill say this right here and now. You can talk till your blue in the face and I shall not change my stance on advantage. If people have played longer, worked harder, or whatever to get where they are it is a just position. Faction advantages or not they got there. Whether it was solo work or group they earned it.

If you want to talk about making armors or weapons more fair, allowing greater player maneuvering, new combat stance...fine. Setting limits on players just so you can catch up, no. Accept someone out there is always going to be better, faster, more equiped.

If your talking of competing with a faction, then make your own or join another. One vs. a group is not a viable strategy in most cases. Sure you can flee but thats not what you were talking of.

As I see it, Haven's end-game is even worse than working in real life. In real life, you get paid or rewarded for your effort. In Haven, you work your life away for a few quality points, which is only useful for the apocalypse PvP, something that only happens once every 1-2 years when a world is about to be reset.

The grinders feel they've achieved something when they work hard to increase quality infinitely. So, you guys like the idea of working to earn better things, huh? Instead of spending 500 hours on a character that ends up dying or being deleted when the world is reset, why not spend that 500 hours doing something that's actually productive and worthwhile? It could be anything, like working out, learning how to program, learning to make art, learning a new language, getting a job, etc. In real life, there are many opportunities where if you work harder than someone else and put more time in, you'll get better results.

I'll let you guys in on a little secret: I work and have hobbies in real life, but sometimes I like to relax and play games. The games I play tend to be change of pace from real life; they're fun and let me experience things I'd never be able to do in real life. When I play games, I don't have to worry about taxes, beaurocrats, budgets, race, gender, stature, religion, popularity, etc. When I play games, I don't have to worry about being picked last on the basketball team or not making the cut for the baseball team. It wouldn't even matter if I was in a wheelchair or if I was deaf.
In games, I am allowed to participate on fair grounds regardless of all these things. The only thing that matters is the effort I put into learning how to play the game skillfully. Learning how to aim that headshot, learning the input command for Ryu's super combo, learning to hold out my shield to protect myself from projectiles, learning when to start drifting to make that sharp turn and get a good speed boost, learning how to solve the puzzle so I can proceed.

In Haven, you do not learn. There is no skill or effort. They might as well scrap the combat system and let you click on an enemy to immediately do damage just like in any other generic MMO, and the person who hits harder will win, because that's what we've got here. The person with higher stats will always win no matter what. It's retarded. Haven is a GAME, not real life where "life isn't fair, deal with it". We don't need the shitty aspects of life seeping into our passtime hobby.

[jorb]

The situation with Salem's camera continues to perplex me. It was universally hated because it caused vertigo, nausea, and was just generally clunky and ugly. Yet JLo defended it through thick and thin despite the very vocal displeasure players had with it.

I would love to offer a more popular camera if I knew how it should work. The Salem client offers several.

[the_portals]

Those "random event" things were one of my favorite things about runescape, because it would give me a chance to try something I've never seen before, with the possibility of some nice loot. Imo it would be awesome to add something along those lines to spice up the gameplay, and it could help with the current botting predicament; say if someone denies too many events it would throw a red flag, and then the next random event would be one you couldn't deny, where you have to solve something only a human could do, something as simple as a captcha, or that fun one where you had to look at an object's silhouette and guess what it is.

[the_portals]

edit: TeckXKnight is the wizard king