Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

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Re: Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

Postby dagrimreefah » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:15 pm

Flame wrote:Actually the fact in my state says that government is thousands ways better than privates.
And i have really a bad politicy system here.

So, why in FACT the public mechanism is better than the privates ones? Because the ones that works in the public, have a fixed payement. They don't have to use the cheaper stuff. They don't NEED to optimize times to gain more money.
They are already payed. What this brings?
1 - The bad thing is that often there is inefficenty. Because the general attitude is more relaxed.
2 - The good thing is that ther's no reason to ask to you to do unwanted therapy, useless cures or other Very Expansive things, because NO ONE is going to gain from this cheats. The people that works here, are not forced by the private system to cheat you, to squeeze from you all the money they can, to give you poisonous food just because is cheaper. There is no incentive on this kind of things.

Honestly i can forgive some laziness, when i have to choose between legal criminals, aka privates, and idealist dudes.


All this have to be put in the right time, anyway. I mean, we are living the worse economical rules of evee. the TOTAL FREEDOM.
So, the legal criminals.

If we was living in a more ruled economic system, there whould probably be more "good privates" with a sort of etic on what they do, because be a criminal could be a big loss of money.
As for now, have etic and be private is a contradiction. Etic is a loss of money.

Too easy to say that communism is evil. There are many things that communist have improved and that we all are enjoing it without know it.
We should know it a little better, maybe, and see what was usefull and what was definitly wrong. Do you thingk that your "right to work" have comed up randomly for some weirs astral coincidence?
Lol.

Of course you would say these things. It is all you know.

Humans are born with rights, Flame. Have some respect for yourself and see that, dude. What gives these other humans rights OVER YOU, just because they are called "the state"?

And no, communism (on a large scale) produces nothing but death, starvation, confusion, and social decay. There is NOTHING good that can come from communism on a large scale.
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Re: Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

Postby Flame » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:30 pm

There are many examples of a way to use proprely most of the communism points, without have the knockback of the bad points.
But if you think that Communism means Starvation and Death, that's exactly what i was talking about. We don't KNOW, simply. We only know a war, a dictature, a random name upon it and we call it Communism, when it's not it. But well, i don't care so much.
The school should teach us the bad and the good things of history. Not only the most easy to tell ones. Is not you'r fault at all.
Anyway you could take the chance and do some research to see if there are living examples of a new communism, a "modern communism" and decide by yourself if is good or evil. If it have good points and bad ones. You can also discover a total new ideal that have nothing to do with capitalism or communism. Who knows.
Is up to you.


About the rights, you don't have it if the state don't allow you to have it. You may think that you should have it, but pratically you don't HAVE it if someone bigger than you deny it.
That's why we should not think that we'll have rights forever, without the need to fight for it.
This have nothing to do with communism. This is just history and reality.

Actually if i have a really good idea and an irrational dude uses it partially, badly, and build up a fucked up dictature, my idea whould be totally smashed down.
Ahw, those dictators... always messing up things. MEH!
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Re: Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

Postby Argus » Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:49 pm

Flame wrote:There are many examples of a way to use proprely most of the communism points, without have the knockback of the bad points.
But if you think that Communism means Starvation and Death, that's exactly what i was talking about. We don't KNOW, simply. We only know a war, a dictature, a random name upon it and we call it Communism, when it's not it. But well, i don't care so much.
The school should teach us the bad and the good things of history. Not only the most easy to tell ones. Is not you'r fault at all.
Anyway you could take the chance and do some research to see if there are living examples of a new communism, a "modern communism" and decide by yourself if is good or evil. If it have good points and bad ones. You can also discover a total new ideal that have nothing to do with capitalism or communism. Who knows.
Is up to you.


About the rights, you don't have it if the state don't allow you to have it. You may think that you should have it, but pratically you don't HAVE it if someone bigger than you deny it.
That's why we should not think that we'll have rights forever, without the need to fight for it.
This have nothing to do with communism. This is just history and reality.

Actually if i have a really good idea and an irrational dude uses it partially, badly, and build up a fucked up dictature, my idea whould be totally smashed down.
Ahw, those dictators... always messing up things. MEH!


Except it KEEPS HAPPENING THIS WAY. Every communist country has turned into a third-world hellhole. Every. Time. And invariably apologists crawl out of the woodwork and declaim, 'Oh, but if only the right people were in charge!'

I like to call this the 'strong man delusion'. If your system of government is heavily dependent on the 'right people' being in charge, you are doing it wrong. Because inevitably, through accident or intent, the wrong man will end up in charge and things will break. In other words, 'it's great to have the perfect man in charge of everything, but what happens if he gets a stomachache?'.
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Re: Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

Postby overtyped » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:42 pm

Yeah because that's always happened and history. CONSTANTLY. We needed government around forever to protect us from those big evil corporations giving us exploding devices and poisonous products. Give me a fucking break. Also, like any corporation would be STUPID enough to continuously sell something that's poisonous....
YEAH, THEY'RE GOING TO STAY IN BUSINESS FOR QUITE A WHILE.......... These are the oldest, most juvenile and regurgitated arguments FOR government and frankly I get a bit jaded having to point out how (a) historically inaccurate they are, since this abyssmal fantasy land where poisonous swingsets and exploding juicers are being sold everywhere just didn't exist and (b)In a real free market, ONE WHERE IS NO GIANT NANNY STATE TO DOLE OUT FAVORS FOR SPECIAL CORPORATIONS, businesses have to compete with eachother and therefore the last PR disaster they would want in a competition-rich environment is to be accused of selling a dangerous product. Only when you inject government and their favors for lobbyists do you get less competition, and thus less caring about selling poisonous products.

If you corner a market you can sell anything you want. How many cable or internet companys do you get to choose from? one? What incentive does a corporation have to research if a product is going to harm people, you say it's because other company's will take over a market they have complete control over? Actually when a product is found harmful they just stop using it and switch to something else feigning ignorance.
Everyone that thinks private corperations are the best in every situation only see the good side of it so I was pointing out the flaws, and I always thought private corporations were better, JUST NOT WITH PRIVATE PRISONS AND RIGHTLY SO.

Also, the key difference, and most important, between government and private enterprise is that private enterprise operates based off of profits, which are achieved by frugal management of resources and appeal to the consumer.. Government actually operates off of LOSSES: And yes, it does hire and contract private workers, but the way the government finances these firms completely throws things like prices and profits out of the window. Government contracted firms or gov't bureaus themselves will actually find ways to prolong projects and devise ways to complete them as inefficiently as possible. The reason: there is no price structure; When the contractor/bureau is asked how much money they need for their budget, they can literally state any price they want (within reason). This is because the money government has to dole out HAS BEEN STOLEN via taxation, or has been simply stroked into existence by a banker at a computer at our central bank, the Federal Reserve. Its not earned, its not a scarce resource. There are no prices, just large sums of cash pushed around to get what you want done, which usually achieves you a vote in the district where you pushed money and jobs into(money that had to come from somewhere else). See the difference? I sure fucking hope so, because that was long winded.

Already said I prefer privatization slightly over government in this aspect.

The government doesn't give a fuck about the health of its population at all. The government is millions of people. Local governments. State governments. City governments. Its impartial. You have this idea that government loves you or something, like its your mother. Dude, its a scam. They tell you that so they can keep taking your money (taxation) for not actually doing anything. They don't do shit. They're lawyers and politicians. Of course they're going to tell you they only want to protect you and keep you safe. Of course they're going to make you believe they care about you. They don't. They don't even know you. THey just want your money. Scratch that: they want as many peoples' money as possible for the least amount of effort.

I was talking about who has more incentive, and for your second part, I don't know who's strawman you are beating up but it isn't mine.

Like I said, don't get me wrong. There are shitty corporations out there. Free market capitalism isn't perfect. NOTHING is perfect. But I'd rather trust in a system that has millions and millions of actors determining the outcome of my economy than a few thousand in Washington DC.

same?

Oh oh, and as for "dur the private corporations fund the war on drugs, durhur!" Please, show me the STATISTICS and cite the resources SHOWING ME that ONLY private corporations are the funders for the war on drugs. No doubt there are a few corporations that pour funding into it, because its profitable for them (security firms, etc). And to hell with them. But just fucking ask yourself, WHY AND HOW DID IT BECOME SO PROFITABLE?

You are raping that strawman. I never said government doesn't fund the war on drugs, I was pointing out how disgusting it is that private prisons lobby for it, so they get more customers, which is actually worse. I didn't say private company's are all lobbying for the war on drugs, just the ones that stand to profit from it.

Oh yeah one more thing about the copper arsenate plated swingsets: You do understand highschool chemistry, right? Like, sodium and chlorine are poisonous by themselves, but when combined make salt. You were taught that shit in school, weren't you?

Even if it's not poisonous you know that's not the point I was making.
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Re: Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

Postby Flame » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:12 pm

Except it KEEPS HAPPENING THIS WAY. Every communist country has turned into a third-world hellhole.


Weird.
The planet where i live on, have many examples of a modern communism perfectly working.
Are we living in two different planets? Or maybe one of us is looking around, outside the small country where he lives, without supersistion that blind his eyes.
And one is not.
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Re: Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

Postby overtyped » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:57 pm

Flame wrote:
Except it KEEPS HAPPENING THIS WAY. Every communist country has turned into a third-world hellhole.


Weird.
The planet where i live on, have many examples of a modern communism perfectly working.
Are we living in two different planets? Or maybe one of us is looking around, outside the small country where he lives, without supersistion that blind his eyes.
And one is not.

I have to disagree, communism is very nice on paper, but if everyone is payed the same wage what incentive do you have to go to medical school for 10 years to earn minimum wage? Communism robs people of the need to be productive or efficient. Capitalism will always outperform communism and places that have communism have had their economy go to complete shit and it doesn't take a genius to see why. You may say what about democracy? well I'm sorry, there is no such thing.
Democracys always become capitalisms always become oligarchys, which is what we have now.
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Re: Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

Postby MagicManICT » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:09 pm

On paper, communism says everyone gets what they need: food, shelter, and warmth. It also says that people should do what they're capable of for the community, so if you can be a doctor, you should be if it's needed by the community. If it's not needed, then you should do something the community does need, such as working the fields. Also, if I'm a smart person in a communist community, why would I want more than others? If I can do smart things when others can't, I should be proud to do them. I will stand out as an individual in my own way and create a better community by doing so.

And if pay is the number one reason people become doctors, we either need to pay doctors more in the US, or figure out the reason why people don't want to do it. Would 10 years of school before getting a paying job be the reason? Maybe its because of all the fucked up paperwork we make medical offices go through just to get a check from the insurance companies?
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Re: Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

Postby Sectory » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:26 pm

Or maybe because you get sued after every surgery for the patient experiencing erectile disfunction?
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Re: Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

Postby Flame » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:28 pm

The main problem of the old communism was the Economy system. It was a book born in the full industrialization era, where everything was different. What i'm talking about is new communism, the one that grants rights to peoples (oh, yeah, guys, rights wasn't so obvious some years ago) and isn't bugged in the economy.

BUT

No one of us can really squeeze few words and hope to explain a whole social system. My suggestion is to search more informations on the ACTUAL communism (not the 100 years old one and, ofc, not the states that have the America embargo ;3) and look by yourself the world around you. There are so many different societies examples out there that we just don't know deeply.
We should.
Only after we can decide.
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Re: Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

Postby Argus » Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:16 pm

This is a common refrain. 'Oh no, Cuba/Angola/Venezuela/the Soviet Union weren't REAL communists. We just need REAL communism.'

No, no we don't. If we can't get it right in a dozen tries, then it might not be for us. One might as well try to cram Pavarotti into a speedo. It's just not gonna work.

There are countries which have incorporated socialist aspects, and the few that aren't having horrendous problems are usually keeping things together due to unrelated issues (population density, for example). But full-on Communist countries invariably crumble, and become little more than autocratic, totalitarian states with none of the basic human rights (let alone basic amenities) found in Western culture.

If Communism was such an effective form of government, it would not repeatedly fail. People would not risk their lives to flee such states.

Perhaps you have a different metric of 'success' than I do, Flame, but watching Venezuela being forced to ration toilet paper and import oil strikes me as a bad, bad symptom.
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