Goodbye, and good riddance

[Caliku]

I'm a newbie and I'm LOVING the fact that I have to go out and find the things I need.

I started a claim in the middle of an area with no trees. After wandering around for hours near my claim I found a half-built boat in the middle of what seemed to be an abandoned claim. I completed it and the game has REALLY opened up.

I'm a ways off from finding a mine, but my claim is already 2400 sq/m. I've been trying to get some friends in, so it won't be so lonely. But I've ran in to a good number of people that were generally friendly and helpful.


I think the issue here is that the OP can't distinguish PvP from griefing. If I find a tool I need sitting on unclaimed land, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm going to do everything I can to get that sucker home.

[Vetarnian]

People join and leave every day,
can't say many people care about
most that leave though, you dont
like how the world is run, take it
over.

And write less if you want most people
to read it xD

And you can't begin to imagine what I think of your frivolous text formatting.

I think the issue here is that the OP can't distinguish PvP from griefing. If I find a tool I need sitting on unclaimed land, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm going to do everything I can to get that sucker home.

PvP I can take; griefing, on the other hand, is gratuitous. It's griefing, not PvP, that will prevent the game world from developing to its full potential.

[Lothaudus]

I think a few people in this thread think that losing a winepress affected me, while in fact it did not. What it did illustrate, however, was to which lengths some people would go for their griefing, taking so much trouble to steal/destroy an utterly meaningless object that could so easily be replaced, just for the sake of demonstrating that they keep tabs on us.

I think you're putting far too much into the wine-press. You may easily have been able to make another but the person who took may not or may not have even known what it was and given the land was unclaimed; assumed it was an abandoned settlement.

And you said yourself, it doesn't really do anything does it? It's easily re-built. So how is that "griefing" exactly? Some individual or individuals 'unknown' break in and destroy your winepress just to show they're
'keeping tabs on you'? U-huh. I think you're smelling a plot where one does not exist.

What makes it so annoying is that it's utterly pointless; like cutting down the trees in our common area, no crippling blow to our collective effort was delivered, it was just done to piss us off. Well, if they get their jollies doing that, I guess I just have to move on to something a little more constructive. I certainly see nothing good that could possibly come out of a game that tolerates this.

hurr durr derpderpderp.

As Chak rightly pointed out: This is why claims exist. If your shit is unclaimed, why are you surprised when it goes missing? Set that claim up boy and then when your wine press gets destroyed, you KNOW it was a griefer and not just some random nub thinking "Hey, that looks pretty, I'll take that".

He's pissed because someone knocked over his winepress. If you think leaving your gate open and having a winepress smashed is griefing, this game is not for you anyway.

If I remember correctly, you're a Goon, right? I've seen Goons in action before; but for those who might not know them, Goons have this unfortunate tendency of showing up in games and telling other people how it should be played, looking for every loophole to make damn sure they do. Because "The Internet Makes You Stupid", right?

Ad hominem.

Enjoy your dead game, sir.

The funny thing is, we are enjoying this 'dead game' and we will continue to do so. If you want a game for babies that's easy, doesn't have people messing with your shit, go find something else.

And I'm saying this as the leader of a community that was raided by those Wayneville-ians (with people actually *shock* killed) when it was barely 2 months old.

I've been playing for 4 days.

Every person I've run in to has been kind as hell, and the most recent person I met I actually had the chance to help out!(Enjoy that boat and fishing gear mystery man!)

You obviously can't handle a true sandbox game. There are going to be grievers. Get to grinding, throw up a brick wall, QQ MOAR.

^This. I walked into Brodgar with an alt once and was immediately offered a house (with farm) by some random stranger. I didn't get the guys name and I didn't take the house as I didn't need it (though he showed it to me) but everyone we've met has been very helpful.

Well, except maybe the Germans. But we still love them all the same.

Solution: Increase trade connectivity. Implement bog ore -- small amounts of iron ore can be hoisted out of bogs. Consider panning for gold and silver. (In all cases, gain should be significantly lower than from mines). The great advantage of these latter steps are that -- even if they were to require a significant amount of work -- it would make it at least possible to solo play the game, something that I myself could appreciate. Another advantage is that industries like that also make it possible for us to increase reliance on metal in crafting recipes.

This would be great. I know when we started getting metal for chests was our Number #1 priority. In the end we again ran into some helpful people who had an abandoned mine they wanted to see used, so we took it up and solved our chest problem. Still, that was before Cupboards (which last outside long enough they can be used for temp storage during harvesting) and we relied heavily on Straw Baskets which worked reasonably well.

Though the severe case of carpel-tunnel that's developing in my right arm would appreciate a 'transfer all' option...

Solution: Claims, per some mechanic, bite back. Please note that this does not attempt to solve the power-curve problems that the game, admittedly, also suffers from.

A thought I had was poisoned food. So when raiders break in to get at your cheese, they run the risk of eating black FEP from a given item. Harvesting plants and mixing a poison (strenght based on Q) could be easily enough done. And you could spread these around within a food storage place. Of course, trading poisoned food would lead to further griefing... Some counter would be needed (detect poison).

Then maybe there might traps, bells and alarms. 'Boiling Oil' that tips if a gate is opened by a stranger? A pit that can be dug and disguised that if someone falls down, they fall onto spikes and get hurt? Again, I think you'd need a detection option and again, griefiers would have a blast setting these up all around someone's camp (unless they can only be built on claimed areas; but that's a rather artificial limit). Traps have a potential upside of being useful for hunting fraidy bears. A village bell might start to toll loudly if an intruder is detected (triggering a trap; or just by walking around).

That might be able to alert a network that could potentially mean someone in another village (Think LOTR lighting the beacons-style) and someone might pop-in any minute. It'd give smaller scale thieves some consideration at least.

Then I think you're barging head first into the mistake of every sandbox game to date. What will you do when the game world is so lopsided that one alliance utterly and completely dominates it?

You sure do seem to enjoy imagining scenarios that don't exist. I mean, what will Jorb and Loftar do if one alliance doesn't dominate utterly? TEH HORRAR.

Still, I'm intrigued by what actually did make you "leave" (word in quotes because like all other QUITRAGERS, you haven't yet)...

In fact, I turned out to be one of the most resilient, as most have stopped playing a few weeks ago. Maybe that makes them weaker -- or wiser, I don't know. But it hardly matters at this stage:

Your friends left. Fair enough, MMO's suck without friends unless you like the loner style.

My mistake was to have forgotten the cardinal rule of sandboxes: nothing is stopping you from dropping your pants and relieving yourself, and the sand over here definitely has an unsavoury yellow tinge.

People apparently "griefed" you. But no mention of what they did as yet.

you've managed to scrape in all that is wrong with the internet, every meme, every catchphrase, every little clique with their exclusive forums, down to the most infamous one, which needs not be identified;

You really seem to hate GOONS.

griefing is so commonplace that it appears to be the only way to play

Again mention of griefing but how were you 'griefed'?

improved kin relationships that mean nothing in a world where anybody who isn't your kin is automatically your enemy.

You didn't seem to run into anyone helpful; which from the experience of myself and about 20 others who I know joined, seems to be a complete crock of shit. I'm yet to hear or meet someone who just runs around killing n00bs. Which incidentally, didn't happen to you. You seem to be alive and well.

whatever they do, nothing could solve the problems of this game, because every mechanic and limitation to the current griefing they could think of will likewise be adopted and distorted by the griefers.

Again "griefing" but nothing specific... Even going so far as saying "every mechanic and limitiation" will be adopted and distorted by griefers. These griefers sound like an unstoppable plague.

I'm thinking, for instance, of the Brodgar-Swampcrazed road, which I have no doubt must have proved extremely useful in the early stages of this map, especially before the introduction of boats. But then I started reading about those griefers who were placing plots right over the initial road, just for their usual giggles.

Finally something specific about griefing and yet.... relevant words highlighted. Did you experience this 'griefing' personally or are you just imagining it?

So what if Jorb and Loftar gave everyone the ability to build public roads, over which nothing could be built? Well, I'm predicting that all of a sudden, those griefers would, like the mob, get into the paving business. Likewise, if palisade walls were reinforced so that they were actually nearly impossible to tear down, those griefers would suddenly find a use for all those trees they currently cut down for no reason.

Strawman. You've created an imagined scenario. If this griefing is so terrible, why not examples of what you specifically encountered that made all your friends leave (because for all intents and purposes, you still haven't left)?

From the start, we knew the perils of being too close to existing villages, so after a brief stay on an abandoned farm, we decided to settle as far away from "civilization" as possible. This was in the second half of October, so boats were already in the game. We crossed half of the main grid, and settled in a spot a fair distance from everything, but we only stayed there for a few days -- right until we realized then that we had built our cabins on the southern tip of Cake Province.

Finally, some example of this 'griefing'. In this case perpetrators have... built their camp in an area clearly defined on a publicly available map. The perpetrators being some nubs who couldn't check a map before they setup. You sure you weren't the ones griefing Cakeport by ruining their territory?

And by the way, one of my guys settled on Cakeport land when he started and before we'd decided to setup a village. Some dude with a sword rocked up one day. Know what he said?

"Welcome. You're on Cake Port land. You're welcome to stay. Just don't claim the area with a village. If you need help, ask."

Gosh, those awful Cake Portian griefer scum! How terrible! THEY MUST DIE!!!11!oneoneone

Then, as everyone had settled east (presumably because of the lack of boats early into the map)

Question: How did you know that "everyone" had settled East?

we decided to head in the opposite direction, in the unspoiled west, and we finally settled on a nice patch of grassland, dodging level-VIII animals, and putting together a small community of our own, away from every main group in the game. As "luck" would have it, a week later, just south of us, Novigrad opened, ostensibly in an attempt to demonstrate that the only solution to the Brodgar wasteland was to replicate it at various points on the map. For us, it meant being added to the griefing circuit.

Finally, something more specific. Again, you settled somewhere only to find some ass had opened up a town there and in this case, setup a Charter Stone. Oddly enough along the same lines you thought of, "Everyone settled out East; let's set a town up out West!".

Sure, you got screwed by Novigrad being setup and that's just plain bad luck. Unfortunately, it happens.

I now read in that other thread that the griefing against Novigrad has continued even though the charterstone has been turned off.

Once again, you're reading about griefing but don't seem to have much in the way of experience with it. Funnily enough, I read about that too. Didn't affect me. A lot of griefing that apparently goes on doesn't affect me but golly-gosh oh boy that won't stop me making a QUITRAGE thread about all the horrible things I'm reading and haven't experienced at all but that I can imagine! My imagination is awesome!

So they went into our common perimeter, by which I mean the space between our plots (which was then surrounded only by branch fences), and cut down every tree we had left there for aesthetic reasons, even though they were your regular quality 10 trees and could easily be replanted.

So people cut-down your UNCLAIMED trees and... they can be easily replanted. How is this leading to QUITRAGE again?

By the way; did you think to CLAIM your land? You know, all that stuff in Brodgar how those people are "claiming plots" right across the road and how that apparently fuck's everyone up? Did you think of perhaps doing that?

On one occasion, when it was still possible to move a filled cupboard, they went on my plot and dragged my cupboard outside

So... your plot. It was CLAIMED right? You know, the best protection in the game against people doing shit apparently.

, presumably hoping it would disintegrate before I could notice.

As opposed to a n00bie stealing a cupboard? Hey I know, let's just speculate on whatever happened because we read something and really have no clue as to why the cupboard actually got there.

Fun story: Our village thought people were grieing deliberately too; turned out to be the n00bs in our town just playing with shit trying to figure it out - they just didn't know any better. Loom farms anyone?

The message was clear enough, though: Just wait and see what we'll do when you have items worth stealing.

So you CLAIMED YOUR LAND at that point, RIGHT? Interesting you're able to deduct such a strong message from this relocated cupboard too. An 'easily replaced" cupboard too I bet.

That's when the palisade went up, not because there is anything valuable on the other side, but because I wanted them to work for it.

Oh, so NOW we decide to take advantage of the protection provided in-game. Okay. So when you see an unclaimed settlement, you assume people are living in it and don't raid it thinking it's abandoned, right? I mean, you got your seeds and setup farms legitimately by asking the person who planted the unclaimed crop you got them from, right?

The last griefing incident, a week ago or so, just demonstrated to what lengths they would go for ultimately petty results.

Here we go. The straw that broke the camels back. Let's see what terrible, permanent and ever lasting damage they did to your camp...

A palisade surrounded our common perimeter, and for most of it, pending the creation of our village, there was only the requisite five-tile distance between our plots, with practically every item being on one plot or the other, and nothing worth stealing was left on unstaked land. But on one day, I had to leave a gate open, so that one of our later settlers could access the village; and the gate itself was not on staked ground.

:/

So later that day, one or more griefers cut through two layers of branch fences located between two other plots, went through the open gate, went around all the plots, and stole or destroyed one of the few items left on free ground: the winepress.

HOLY FUCK WHAT A TERRIBLE CRIME. HOW DID YOU EVER COPE?

By the way, if "nothing worth stealing" was all you had on unclaimed land and this isn't such a huge issue, why even bother mentioning it? You're spending quite a few words on the wine-press here.

Yes, that's right, the bleepin' winepress, which anyone could build using a few boards.

Oh wai... Aren't you quitting because these griefers just ruined things completely for you? If it's just a few boards, why the deal?

They actually moved the churn that was in front of it to get to it. Futile, pointless, and the modus operandi for this game; even worse, the open gate was far inland, and could not be seen by someone on a boat on either of the rivers near us. So that means it was not even a case of seeing an opportunity: they actually went ashore, deliberately looked around for an entrance, and went in.

You mean people walk ashore in this game? The absurdity! You're right. There's absolutely no chance anyone would ever get off a boat there and just take a look around. They definitely were targetting your settlement. The evidence does not lie.

If you consider that this game is a massive grindfest, even for maintenance, even for eating, and that skills are pretty much a case of not only how much grinding you put in, but also when you joined, you will understand why, as a latecomer and a member of a smaller group, I'm sick of it.

Oh look, there's a sentence of truth in amongst all the crap. Who knew?

I can also tell you of the time I went into the outer grids, carrying a boat around in level-X territory, using an alt with no skill to his name except what led to yeomanry and prospecting, and came back, sixty doses of rustroot extract and I don't know how many hours later, with nothing, because one of the mines the extract picked up was already claimed (by one of the usual suspects)

'Usual suspects' being these awful GOONS amirite? Now have you experienced them in this game yet or only just read about them?

I would gladly have dispensed with wasting time looking around for mines to concentrate on farming, but the current game all but forced me to.

We survived without metal for about a month. Trading only food for metal bars. We wanted metal to get the shinier stuff and because we had everything else at that stage. Chests were a big factor and again, this was before cupboards and seed bags.

It might have been different if it had a trading system that actually worked, wasn't reliant on an IRC channel I don't exactly feel like using, and wasn't driven by paranoia over the items being located back to their crafters.

This is more stuff you've read about, right?

All of this points to the need to be economically self-sufficient, if only for security reasons; in other words, the same problem as with all sandboxes, where the pretense of a fully working trading system is blown apart, not aided, by the absence of regulation, which leads to a state of rampant paranoia

Said the man who's paranoid that "someone" is relocating his unclaimed cupboards just to show him "they mean business".

Jorb and Loftar, I want to tell you this: I came into this game hoping that maybe you would actually manage something that no other game could: a cohesive virtual world where villages could coexist, land be settled, roads be built, alliances be made, and peaceful players be left in peace.

This happens.

Instead, I find bands of roving griefers, a grindfest at every level, a world where boats now trump everything, a hierarchy based on joining date, and this... community.

Tell you what, when you have one of the stronger players in the game (hey burgingham!) with his friends, standing at your docks killing everyone in your village that comes by, you might have a point. I really suspect your people left simply because they couldn't work the game out; which is a fair enough truth. If that's the case, don't write pages of bullshit.

Quite simply your friends left, you imagined scenarios from reading about them and you settled on someone elses land... When you finally settled your own land, you didn't claim it or protect it. And you're surprised that some cupboards and a wine-press got moved? Two things which are "easily replaceable". Oh but this is all part of some big conspiracy by someone to show you they're on to you.

Hide your cupboards ladies and gentleman. The elusive cupboard mover may strike again!

(there should be far less rivers and a few isolated small lakes here and there)

There are plenty of places like this. Please don't judge the whole world based on your pathetic amount of experience in the Main Grid and an unuccessful mine hunting expedition with a 'no skilled alt'.

First thing I would do, though, is release that map of the eastern grid, because I'm tired of hearing about "Chernobyl", "Xanadu" or "Wayneville" without even knowing where they are, and their location being considered a quasi-state secret by those who do know, even though they seem to be legion.

What a great idea! When you found your village, everyone can know about that too so then everyone who likes can drop by and pay you a visit without having to work for it.

I'm sorry but you've just spouted pages of complete bullshit. Most of your problems are imagined. You said yourself, you hate "hearing about "Chernobyl", "Xanadu" or "Wayneville" without even knowing where they are". So get in a fucking boat and go looking for them, dipshit. There is a cartography skill, so knock yourself out.

My suggestion though: Stop reading the forums and actually play the game instead. There's no reason why you need to know about Chernobyl; Xanadu or Wayneville.

Second, I would drop every development on features which do not involve village management, trading, or security generally.

Said the man who:
1. Didn't claim his land.
2. Didn't build a pallisade.
3. Left a gate unlocked.

Security exists, you just need to use it. Again, stop imaging scenarios that don't exist.

/Server's down. So sue me.

[Alamarian]

Very few posts warrant a tl;dr. Lothaudus owns one of them. I understand boredom but I'd have just taken my meat for a spin. More productive.

[Jackard]

damn, son

[Ajantis]

Wow Lothaudus do you have a lot of spare time?
And I've spent a lot of my time reading all that post
We all have too much time when the server is offline, bring it back! :'(

[Jackard]

So how might we end the thread after that climax of a post? i suggest

"Goodbye, and good riddance"

[Yolan]

Just for the record, speaking as the guy who founded Brodgar, people predicted we would be griefed to death. In fact, there was basically next to no griefing at all. The reason for the quietness of the current place is, if anything, core players such as myself getting a bit bored, and deciding to go on hiatus for the time being. Also, poor layout (my fault!) is also probably somewhat to blame.

[Errol]

too long; did read

[Vetarnian]

Part one:

I think a few people in this thread think that losing a winepress affected me, while in fact it did not. What it did illustrate, however, was to which lengths some people would go for their griefing, taking so much trouble to steal/destroy an utterly meaningless object that could so easily be replaced, just for the sake of demonstrating that they keep tabs on us.

I think you're putting far too much into the winepress. You may easily have been able to make another but the person who took may not or may not have even known what it was and given the land was unclaimed; assumed it was an abandoned settlement.

And you said yourself, it doesn't really do anything does it? It's easily re-built. So how is that "griefing" exactly? Some individual or individuals 'unknown' break in and destroy your winepress just to show they're
'keeping tabs on you'? U-huh. I think you're smelling a plot where one does not exist.

I maintain my theory that the wine-press was taken precisely because it was meaningless, as if to say, "Look to what lengths we went for such a puny item; can you imagine what we'd do for something valuable?"

Abandoned settlement? No, I don't think anyone could have thought that, if you consider that developments around the settlement were being made almost every day.

What makes it so annoying is that it's utterly pointless; like cutting down the trees in our common area, no crippling blow to our collective effort was delivered, it was just done to piss us off. Well, if they get their jollies doing that, I guess I just have to move on to something a little more constructive. I certainly see nothing good that could possibly come out of a game that tolerates this.

hurr durr derpderpderp.

As Chak rightly pointed out: This is why claims exist. If your shit is unclaimed, why are you surprised when it goes missing? Set that claim up boy and then when your wine press gets destroyed, you KNOW it was a griefer and not just some random nub thinking "Hey, that looks pretty, I'll take that".

Why do you think the winepress was outside my claim? Because it's intrinsically worthless. Because I could hardly figure someone going there to steal or destroy something that could so easily be replaced.

And it takes a special kind of random nub to step off a boat, go on land around our settlement, seek an open gate, cut through two layers of branch fences, navigate around plots, and move a churn, just to get to a winepress, wouldn't you think?

He's pissed because someone knocked over his winepress. If you think leaving your gate open and having a winepress smashed is griefing, this game is not for you anyway.

If I remember correctly, you're a Goon, right? I've seen Goons in action before; but for those who might not know them, Goons have this unfortunate tendency of showing up in games and telling other people how it should be played, looking for every loophole to make damn sure they do. Because "The Internet Makes You Stupid", right?

Ad hominem.

you've managed to scrape in all that is wrong with the internet, every meme, every catchphrase, every little clique with their exclusive forums, down to the most infamous one, which needs not be identified;

You really seem to hate GOONS.

The Goons are the most infamous of them, but they're not the only ones. It's also 4Chan, etc., the lower depths of Internet hell.

Enjoy your dead game, sir.

The funny thing is, we are enjoying this 'dead game' and we will continue to do so. If you want a game for babies that's easy, doesn't have people messing with your shit, go find something else.

And I'm saying this as the leader of a community that was raided by those Wayneville-ians (with people actually *shock* killed) when it was barely 2 months old.

I've seen your equivalent in other games, too, though instead of calling it "game for babies", it would be Hello Kitty Online or something. In fact, I would call griefing, because of its meaninglessness, the pinnacle of immaturity.

I've been playing for 4 days.

Every person I've run in to has been kind as hell, and the most recent person I met I actually had the chance to help out!(Enjoy that boat and fishing gear mystery man!)

You obviously can't handle a true sandbox game. There are going to be grievers. Get to grinding, throw up a brick wall, QQ MOAR.

^This. I walked into Brodgar with an alt once and was immediately offered a house (with farm) by some random stranger. I didn't get the guys name and I didn't take the house as I didn't need it (though he showed it to me) but everyone we've met has been very helpful.

Well, except maybe the Germans. But we still love them all the same.

I'm afraid I've never experienced the same thing.

Then I think you're barging head first into the mistake of every sandbox game to date. What will you do when the game world is so lopsided that one alliance utterly and completely dominates it?

You sure do seem to enjoy imagining scenarios that don't exist. I mean, what will Jorb and Loftar do if one alliance doesn't dominate utterly? TEH HORRAR.

Still, I'm intrigued by what actually did make you "leave" (word in quotes because like all other QUITRAGERS, you haven't yet)...

I like the innuendo that I'm not really leaving because I'm still here, responding to your comments. I've stopped playing the game, which I would think is the essence of "quitting", but if you think that this gives you carte blanche to throw accusations at me, while taxing me with inconsistency or hypocrisy if I dare to respond, you're mistaken.

What actually made me leave, you ask? I would think that someone who runs a town that was raided, with I don't know how many months' worth of grinding lost in the process, would appreciate someone looking ahead and foreseeing the day when the same thing will happen to him, and coming to the conclusion that "no, all this grind really isn't worth it".

My mistake was to have forgotten the cardinal rule of sandboxes: nothing is stopping you from dropping your pants and relieving yourself, and the sand over here definitely has an unsavoury yellow tinge.

People apparently "griefed" you. But no mention of what they did as yet.

griefing is so commonplace that it appears to be the only way to play

Again mention of griefing but how were you 'griefed'?

I did explain the incidents; and then, you get this forum.