Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[Kaios]

Once again everyone has missed the point, which is: Suggestions like these are going to continue until Jorb and Loftar actually make clear their intentions/progress/opinions and so on and so forth. You do realize what we essentially have with them is a one-sided conversation, right? I mean what do you honestly expect people to do and say when the developers don't even make it clear what THEY want?!?

Don't say "nothing" either because that's not the point of a forum or Critique and Ideas section and it's not even reasonable to suggest nothing. Bad suggestions are better than nothing because even a bad suggestion has some merit to it and there's no reason they are forced to listen to it anyways, where as one who suggests nothing is going to get the same in return.

Not sure why you guys have such trouble understanding the basic principles of communication and the ability to also ignore something if you don't agree with it.

[Spectro]

Hafen was released in 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8fzPebkO-s

[Oddity]

Hafen was released in 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8fzPebkO-s

I don't see the free non-consensual permadeath PvP anywhere.

[Duderock]

Actually, I do realize that it is probably moot to even begin to try to discuss this, reasonably or not, hence my reluctance to say anything in the past, but also know that I am speaking with complete sincerity. Just because people have gone into more detail doesn't mean that it's a good idea. My point was not to highlight the depth of suggestions given, but more so to comment on people's viewpoints and attitudes when they suggest something and it's not widely accepted and acclaimed and implemented instantly. Instead of stubbornly sticking by our own ideas stemmed from how we individually would envision the game with no other motive than pride, we need to listen.

I've seen lots of ideas presented too and I agree that they have lots of flaws in them. But what bothers me is the way those ideas are dismissed just because they aren't perfect, even if the ideas are arguably superior to the systems we have now.

They have those: card games, board games, role-playing chatrooms. Not the majority of computerized games. Why? For one, not everyone wants to play with others. There are a lot of hermits around that want to be hermits, not these "hermit colonies" I've seen suggested for the sake of implementing ridiculous civilization buffs or debuffs or whatever. Online games are great that they have given us a social aspect to games through chatting or working together, but it should not be a requirement, especially for a game like this. For two, the mechanics would clash between what the game is trying to achieve and sociability. If everything is based off social interaction, which, as has been said, would be difficult to quantify, then it's not a survival/crafting mmo, it's a social network, and we have plenty of those already.

Maybe when he says 'social interaction' he isn't talking about socializing as such, but rather the potential of letting others affect your experience. At least that's certainly what I meant everytime I've mentioned it. In which case that's something no one has the right to deny in an MMO that's designed that way. I also fail to see how the survival/crafting aspect would diminish if social interaction is a more prominent focus of the game.

[Repercussionist]

I've seen lots of ideas presented too and I agree that they have lots of flaws in them. But what bothers me is the way those ideas are dismissed just because they aren't perfect, even if the ideas are arguably superior to the systems we have now.

This I somewhat agree with. There are a lot of ideas with a lot of flaws. I'm not saying to NOT suggest ideas. What people feel to realize, though, is what implications their ideas actually have to other people and the game in general. About some ideas being "arguably superior", people suggest things that cater to them, naturally, and I feel like most of the arguing and disagreeing is because everyone wants what is most convenient for them implemented. We need less dismissing for the sake of dismissing, and more refining what we have in our pool, but that would take people being humble and considerate, which is extremely unlikely.

Maybe when he says 'social interaction' he isn't talking about socializing as such, but rather the potential of letting others affect your experience. At least that's certainly what I meant everytime I've mentioned it. In which case that's something no one has the right to deny in an MMO that's designed that way. I also fail to see how the survival/crafting aspect would diminish if social interaction is a more prominent focus of the game.

Here, I stand by what I've said in the past, though I feel it may not be a simple concept to grasp. I DO want the game to increase social interaction, and yes, I too mean more than just "socializing". The problem with what we have, though, is that most, if not all, of the ideas to do this are based on implementing it as a game mechanic by somehow quantifying it and having this arbitrary number directly affect some aspect of the game. When, if it were possible, we would start doing this, people would be having to invest time doing whatever "social" thing, which is where it would lose some of its identity as a crafting mmo. Again, I want more sociability, but it should be brought about naturally by the current (future) mechanics, not implemented into the code. Don't deny it, but also don't force it. Just encourage it. Currently as it stands, we have a system that offers low risk = high reward and high risk = low reward. Especially once factions are established, staying in your safe brick wall and grinding whatever quality object you're grinding is what is going to advance you in the game. Going out on your character, let's say to raid, offers some reward in the form of loot, but usually if you are able to get into their compound and kill them, what they have is going to be of little value, but you're still risking your character in a permadeath game. We will never be able to foster increased social interaction in any form while this imbalance is the case.

Aside:

Not sure why you guys have such trouble understanding the basic principles of communication and the ability to also ignore something if you don't agree with it.

I don't agree with social injustice, I should ignore it? Ignoring problems is what's going to screw us and impede progress. So what you meant to say was "if there's something kaios agrees with, everyone else should jump on board or sit quiet."

[Duderock]

This I somewhat agree with. There are a lot of ideas with a lot of flaws. I'm not saying to NOT suggest ideas. What people feel to realize, though, is what implications their ideas actually have to other people and the game in general. About some ideas being "arguably superior", people suggest things that cater to them, naturally, and I feel like most of the arguing and disagreeing is because everyone wants what is most convenient for them implemented. We need less dismissing for the sake of dismissing, and more refining what we have in our pool, but that would take people being humble and considerate, which is extremely unlikely.

The issue with that is the fact that everyone has different reasons for enjoying the game. So they will use that as justification to reject an idea. For instance, some argue combat should solely rely on skill because death is too punishing, but others would say they want their time investment to give an advantage. In which case there will NEVER be an agreement. Therefore as Kaios said, this is a problem that will persist until Jorb and Loftar make clear what their intentions are. For all we know we could be trying to fix something that's not broken.

Here, I stand by what I've said in the past, though I feel it may not be a simple concept to grasp. I DO want the game to increase social interaction, and yes, I too mean more than just "socializing". The problem with what we have, though, is that most, if not all, of the ideas to do this are based on implementing it as a game mechanic by somehow quantifying it and having this arbitrary number directly affect some aspect of the game. When, if it were possible, we would start doing this, people would be having to invest time doing whatever "social" thing, which is where it would lose some of its identity as a crafting mmo. Again, I want more sociability, but it should be brought about naturally by the current (future) mechanics, not implemented into the code. Don't deny it, but also don't force it. Just encourage it. Currently as it stands, we have a system that offers low risk = high reward and high risk = low reward. Especially once factions are established, staying in your safe brick wall and grinding whatever quality object you're grinding is what is going to advance you in the game. Going out on your character, let's say to raid, offers some reward in the form of loot, but usually if you are able to get into their compound and kill them, what they have is going to be of little value, but you're still risking your character in a permadeath game. We will never be able to foster increased social interaction in any form while this imbalance is the case.

For the record, my idea didn't involve quantifying social interaction(quite the opposite in fact). But I'm still failing to understand why it would lose its identity as a crafting MMO if things are more social. Are you imagining something such as clicking 'like' to get a cow in Farmville or something? I was thinking more, cooperative tasks to achieve a common goal, like herding sheep(just an example).

But I agree with you that the current (low risk:high reward) (high risk:low reward) system is deeply flawed, but I believe this is a consequence of the 2 opposing factors that make this game so different (permadeath and high investment characters). I believe unless we sacrifice one or the other, social interaction might have to be somewhat 'forced' if any is to occur.

[Spectro]

Hafen was released in 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8fzPebkO-s

I don't see the free non-consensual permadeath PvP anywhere.

Ok.
If you want to see "free non-consensual ... PvP", then look here -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAsUrKShfK4
I think it will be very similar to Hafen.

[Kaios]

I don't agree with social injustice, I should ignore it? Ignoring problems is what's going to screw us and impede progress. So what you meant to say was "if there's something kaios agrees with, everyone else should jump on board or sit quiet."

What the fuck are you talking about? I am saying Jorb and Loftar have the ability to ignore suggestions if they don't agree with them and they have before and they will in the future I'm sure.

That doesn't mean what is being said now might not be useful later on, or bits and pieces can be taken here and there. It just annoys me when I see someone put a huge amount of effort in to posting their thoughts and suggestions and then I see someone else respond with about 1% of the effort the person they are replying to just displayed saying some bullshit like, "bad idea said before no chance ever bye."

[Potjeh]

If you have a problem with social injustice, you should fuck off to tumblr where all the other social justice warriors are.

[Repercussionist]

What the fuck are you talking about? I am saying Jorb and Loftar have the ability to ignore suggestions if they don't agree with them and they have before and they will in the future I'm sure.

That doesn't mean what is being said now might not be useful later on, or bits and pieces can be taken here and there. It just annoys me when I see someone put a huge amount of effort in to posting their thoughts and suggestions and then I see someone else respond with about 1% of the effort the person they are replying to just displayed saying some bullshit like, "bad idea said before no chance ever bye."

You're right and as I've said a lot of the idea bashing comes from someone else having a "better one" and completely disregarding everything else because it's not theirs. But that is not at all what you said.

However, point in case:

If you have a problem with social injustice, you should fuck off to tumblr where all the other social justice warriors are.

If you have a problem with where this game goes, you should fuck off to any other game because there is always room to whine. You've done and said a lot of things in the past that I've respected, but don't let your self-righteousness and impatience cloud reason.