Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

[overtyped]

This is a common refrain. 'Oh no, Cuba/Angola/Venezuela/the Soviet Union weren't REAL communists. We just need REAL communism.'

No, no we don't. If we can't get it right in a dozen tries, then it might not be for us. One might as well try to cram Pavarotti into a speedo. It's just not gonna work.

There are countries which have incorporated socialist aspects, and the few that aren't having horrendous problems are usually keeping things together due to unrelated issues (population density, for example). But full-on Communist countries invariably crumble, and become little more than autocratic, totalitarian states with none of the basic human rights (let alone basic amenities) found in Western culture.

If Communism was such an effective form of government, it would not repeatedly fail. People would not risk their lives to flee such states.

Perhaps you have a different metric of 'success' than I do, Flame, but watching Venezuela being forced to ration toilet paper and import oil strikes me as a bad, bad symptom.

Yep, the oligarchy we have now is the best we can ever hope for, that is until the day humans no longer greed, which coincidentally is the same day humans become extinct. Once that happens you can finally have your communism Flame!

[Tonkyhonk]

the problem communism has in the first place is that there are things that cannot be shared fairly among all the members of the state, which creates society class where people are not equal. and when there are things that *cannot be shared* and people accept the fact, then things that people *dont want to share with others* appear, and it escalates further to destroy the state.

[Flame]

I'm not a communist that want to defende a silly idea of "Every human is the same so need to have the same". First, because this is not communist. (first2 because this is a distopy)
Second, because there are many thing that NEED to be shared (really) and in a capitalistic society can't be shared.
And third, because i hate most of the communist dudes, pretty dumb on theyr fixed ideas. And that fucking red flag that reminds me only blood and war. XD

In one word, what is our right to have guaranted is: public services.
Hospitals. Schools. Food. House.

This is not a "The state decides what you eat, where you live, where you heal". Is a "You're free to build your life, but if you fails, you have the right to not die in a street, to not start an epidemic because unhealed and to not starve to death. Now go and rebuild your life with your abilities."

We partially have this, here in Italy, and we are slowly loosing this because everything is becoming privatizated. (you wonder why i think that privates aren't good, if not ruled, then?)
I think this is something that can be done without change a whole system, and without destroy the economy. We basically had it for many years and the system was well balanced. IT IS well balanced, so much balanced that 90% of the tax money goes to the mafia and the privates. The state is living with less then half of the taxes, so, yeah, it can strongly be done.


About the bigger economy, we should take as example the new communist, just because the old one is useless. If i'm not wrong is called Modern Communist. And also because is well visible the self destruction system of the Free Market.
Imho, i don't need a full communist country to live good. Atm i need the right to heal myself also if i've no money, because MY illness is the ilness of all the people around me, and if i cant be healed due a fucking piece of paper, then the people around me will die with me, causing really more economic damage than a simple 100 euros of money loss for a heal.

I was one of those that hated communist. Wars, death, crazy people on the street... meh. pretty hard to not hate such things. Then i've discovered what communist was.
Uhm. Bugged as hell, yeah. Then i've seen the good part used in other countries. the bad one fixed and new ideas created to complete what was missing.
In my opinion, they should create a new word for it, because is a total different thing.

Is so funny that i can describe you a WHOLE SOCIETY built on the human rights, you all whould agree with me and then i could easily say to you "Ok, now look here. Omg.. it's called communism!!! BLEH D:"
Lol.
I swear that this have happened many, many times. We all want the same thing. Freedom and human rights.
We all hates the society that went nearest this. lol.

That's why they should create a new word, for something that have good old ideas but new system.


Ps: the freedom i'm talking about is not that silly american total freedom based on a low culture and a really easy human manipulation.
The freedom comes from the School. ;3

[GrapefruitV]

The planet where i live on, have many examples of a modern communism perfectly working.
Are we living in two different planets?

Are there any examples bigger than families or small anarchist communes*?


*tbh I don't know successful examples of those either, but I assume it could work in some other regions of the world, where rebellious teens won't run back to their homes as soon as 8 months long winter comes and they can't survive on their own vegies anymore

[Tonkyhonk]

If i'm not wrong is called Modern Communist.

if im correct, the term you are seeking is social democracy or democratic socialism, but not communism.

[GrapefruitV]

In one word, what is our right to have guaranted is: public services.
Hospitals. Schools. Food. House.

You confuse communism with socialism, but I think the second one is as bad as the first. I grew up in the same situation, since I was born in 1990 in USSR, which was ended in 1991: everything "free" is slowly being taken away from people and a lot of people are actually angry about it and dream about union being back. But there is a simple truth: nothing is ever free, laws of consrvation work everywhere on Earth, someone built that house, someone works in that hospital, that food is made of something and you still have to pay for it, but you're paying not directly for exactly one thing you need exactly when you need it, but you and millions of other people are paying for it constantly via taxes. And eventually everyone except hobos end up paying more than they would pay to private company for particular services they need. Illusion of free public services is nothing more than a fuel for populists speaches. I believe I don't even need to mention how much more efficient private companies are.
Average russian hospital located not in Moscow after a century of free medicine:


And it's not even free, they still take money for pretty much everything, because they simply can't run it for pityful pennies they get from our taxes after governments distribution.

[Flame]

Just to know, what exactly you like and dislike of the actual system you're living in?
This whould help me find a proper example then.

[GrapefruitV]

Just to know, what exactly you like and dislike of the actual system you're living in?
This whould help me find a proper example then.

It's not about what I like and dislike, I wouldn't like even a heaven on earth, if it's market isn't free and they take over 50% of your income via taxes. To consider system successful, it should correspond to atleast few major features:
1. Being developed up to date (science, culture, technology, etc.). Now you can see that all communist countries are behind the first world. USSR was competitive at one point and even more developed in certain areas, but that was forced and didn't last long, because stable development is unnatural without atleast free-ish market.
2. Not digging a hole in own budget. That concerns both communists and socialists. Spendings on social needs in Europe are growing, but demographic situation isn't so bright, your children's taxes are supposed to cover that hole, but it only get's deeper.
3. Efficient economy.
4. Individuals freedom. Eventually communism leads to lack of that freedom. Situation with socialism is different, but it leads to lack of freedom of another kind aswell.

[Flame]

Every public service is payed via taxes. In London too, and they are not communist or complaining a bad service.
It's just the right way to have money to build public services. If you live in a society, that society gives you many things and you pay it back.
But also, if you Live in a society, YOU are part of it and you pay what is needed for the society, not strictly what is needed for you. But this is balanced so that what you pay is less of what you gain during your life.
When corruption don't steal 90% of it, of course. ;D

Anyway i'm sorry to say this but privates aren't better than public. Definitly.
Too much often, to not say Always, privates thinks only to take more money they can from you. You have a broken thoot? "Oh, you'r whole mouth is not ok. You have to do this this this this that and those."
This isn't a joke, that's real.
if i can't do all those stuff, should i then decide what i need and what i don't? Am i a doctor?
And if i can't trust doctor, then why a private should be better? Only because in a public system there are people that stole public money?
If so, privatization isn't the solution.

Is just like H&H.
Add a bug to fix a bug is not a solution, is only a double bug.

[overtyped]

Every public service is payed via taxes. In London too, and they are not communist or complaining a bad service.
It's just the right way to have money to build public services. If you live in a society, that society gives you many things and you pay it back.
But also, if you Live in a society, YOU are part of it and you pay what is needed for the society, not strictly what is needed for you. But this is balanced so that what you pay is less of what you gain during your life.
When corruption don't steal 90% of it, of course. ;D

Anyway i'm sorry to say this but privates aren't better than public. Definitly.
Too much often, to not say Always, privates thinks only to take more money they can from you. You have a broken thoot? "Oh, you'r whole mouth is not ok. You have to do this this this this that and those."
This isn't a joke, that's real.
if i can't do all those stuff, should i then decide what i need and what i don't? Am i a doctor?
And if i can't trust doctor, then why a private should be better? Only because in a public system there are people that stole public money?
If so, privatization isn't the solution.

Is just like H&H.
Add a bug to fix a bug is not a solution, is only a double bug.

Holy crap, I agree with you to some extent. Private business related to healthcare/prisons/public transportation should never be privatized. To the other essential human services i'm missing, I doubt they should be privatized either.
Business in general should though, that's the only way.