Goodbye, and good riddance

[Chakravanti]

Why do you think the winepress was outside my claim? Because it's intrinsically worthless. Because I could hardly figure someone going there to steal or destroy something that could so easily be replaced.

SO why do you bitch about it so goddamn hard? LMFAO

@Loth - I like the idea of boiling pitch and other traps. Something that requires construction, can be obfuscated so it 'surprises' the people bashing the walls, steling your stuff, etc. Quality of the traps versus Some skills of the attacker would be enough to offset wether or not you cna produce something valuable enough for such a high level player to care about you should also be able to build traps of equivalent power.

For this to be anything worthwhile traps would have to deal serious grievous damage, and as such, convey the threat of death.

[Jackard]

Conspiracy of the Winepress

[Vetarnian]

Part 2:

I'm thinking, for instance, of the Brodgar-Swampcrazed road, which I have no doubt must have proved extremely useful in the early stages of this map, especially before the introduction of boats. But then I started reading about those griefers who were placing plots right over the initial road, just for their usual giggles.

Finally something specific about griefing and yet.... relevant words highlighted. Did you experience this 'griefing' personally or are you just imagining it?

I've used that road, I saw how in several places it seemed to meander around plots (especially between Brodgar and Blandinsville; later I just took the crossroads because it was faster), I saw the placement of plots cutting off passages between ridges with no ostensible purpose other than to block the way through. That road is symbolic of a noble pursuit forever ruined by griefers. Now imagine this over the entire game. Appealing, isn't it?

So what if Jorb and Loftar gave everyone the ability to build public roads, over which nothing could be built? Well, I'm predicting that all of a sudden, those griefers would, like the mob, get into the paving business. Likewise, if palisade walls were reinforced so that they were actually nearly impossible to tear down, those griefers would suddenly find a use for all those trees they currently cut down for no reason.

Strawman. You've created an imagined scenario. If this griefing is so terrible, why not examples of what you specifically encountered that made all your friends leave (because for all intents and purposes, you still haven't left)?

It's an imagined scenario, but don't think it won't be precisely what happens if this is brought in.

And I'm not saying that's why all my friends left. One of them cited the boredom of grinding, and yeah, it probably would have led to my quitting in the long term -- but that griefing just makes it worse. I don't think it's something we wanted to go through -- not at this stage anyway.

One of my friends was telling me that in the current state of the game, all that RvR stuff is rather pointless, because there's nothing you can do with it. Griefers, however, don't need a purpose.

From the start, we knew the perils of being too close to existing villages, so after a brief stay on an abandoned farm, we decided to settle as far away from "civilization" as possible. This was in the second half of October, so boats were already in the game. We crossed half of the main grid, and settled in a spot a fair distance from everything, but we only stayed there for a few days -- right until we realized then that we had built our cabins on the southern tip of Cake Province.

Finally, some example of this 'griefing'. In this case perpetrators have... built their camp in an area clearly defined on a publicly available map. The perpetrators being some nubs who couldn't check a map before they setup. You sure you weren't the ones griefing Cakeport by ruining their territory?

And by the way, one of my guys settled on Cakeport land when he started and before we'd decided to setup a village. Some dude with a sword rocked up one day. Know what he said?

"Welcome. You're on Cake Port land. You're welcome to stay. Just don't claim the area with a village. If you need help, ask."

Gosh, those awful Cake Portian griefer scum! How terrible! THEY MUST DIE!!!11!oneoneone

So you're saying we actually griefed Cake Province?

First, I was not the one who chose that initial location (nor our last one, for that matter). I had a chat with him after reading your comment, and here is what he said: "Well when we were settling it didn't occur to me that some bunch of idiots might have decided to claim a giant block of land they can't possibly use". And I agree with him -- why don't you all go ahead and carve the entire hearthlands between yourselves while having neither the means nor the need for such large pieces of territory, just for the sake of making everyone pay a tribute? Then every noob who joins the game will be trespassing on somebody else's land, and it would certainly fit in with the cliquish mentality of some of this game's players; you can all discuss the carving between yourselves on IRC, and graphically represent it on a map not even hosted on this website -- that is, the 1/25th of which that you collectively have ever bothered posting.

You see, what we did was not griefing, because we were unaware we were settling on someone else's turf, even if their claim to it is tenuous at best. Griefing is deliberate, whereas we settled only with the best of intentions. And that map you link to, we first saw it AFTER we settled there, and we decided to move upon seeing it. Otherwise, do you think we'd have gone and settled there anyway? After all, we would probably have been okay just by moving to the other bank of the river, outside of Cake Province, but we chose to leave the area altogether just to be safe.

Perhaps you did have friendly encounters with Cakelanders, but what were we to think when we saw the map, with the caption: "trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again"? (And actually, we wanted to set up a village eventually, and it would have been unacceptable to them, according to your comment.)

Then, as everyone had settled east (presumably because of the lack of boats early into the map)

Question: How did you know that "everyone" had settled East?

By that time, at the time of leaving Cake Province, we had seen the map with the major settlements, which were all in the east, with nothing much west of Brodgar. So we went west. We were still thinking at that time that this was the entire game world; otherwise, we would have gone out of the main grid.

we decided to head in the opposite direction, in the unspoiled west, and we finally settled on a nice patch of grassland, dodging level-VIII animals, and putting together a small community of our own, away from every main group in the game. As "luck" would have it, a week later, just south of us, Novigrad opened, ostensibly in an attempt to demonstrate that the only solution to the Brodgar wasteland was to replicate it at various points on the map. For us, it meant being added to the griefing circuit.

Finally, something more specific. Again, you settled somewhere only to find some ass had opened up a town there and in this case, setup a Charter Stone. Oddly enough along the same lines you thought of, "Everyone settled out East; let's set a town up out West!".

Sure, you got screwed by Novigrad being setup and that's just plain bad luck. Unfortunately, it happens.

Just another settlement in the place of Novigrad would not have bothered us, if they had been peaceful. But what we got instead was a portal for new settlers. It's not the new settlers I mind, it's the Cosa Nostra of gaming that never fails to follow them.

I now read in that other thread that the griefing against Novigrad has continued even though the charterstone has been turned off.

Once again, you're reading about griefing but don't seem to have much in the way of experience with it. Funnily enough, I read about that too. Didn't affect me. A lot of griefing that apparently goes on doesn't affect me but golly-gosh oh boy that won't stop me making a QUITRAGE thread about all the horrible things I'm reading and haven't experienced at all but that I can imagine! My imagination is awesome!

Sure it doesn't affect you; you don't live there.

[Vetarnian]

Part 3:

So they went into our common perimeter, by which I mean the space between our plots (which was then surrounded only by branch fences), and cut down every tree we had left there for aesthetic reasons, even though they were your regular quality 10 trees and could easily be replanted.

So people cut-down your UNCLAIMED trees and... they can be easily replanted. How is this leading to QUITRAGE again?

By the way; did you think to CLAIM your land? You know, all that stuff in Brodgar how those people are "claiming plots" right across the road and how that apparently fuck's everyone up? Did you think of perhaps doing that?

On one occasion, when it was still possible to move a filled cupboard, they went on my plot and dragged my cupboard outside

So... your plot. It was CLAIMED right? You know, the best protection in the game against people doing shit apparently.

, presumably hoping it would disintegrate before I could notice.

As opposed to a n00bie stealing a cupboard? Hey I know, let's just speculate on whatever happened because we read something and really have no clue as to why the cupboard actually got there.

Fun story: Our village thought people were grieing deliberately too; turned out to be the n00bs in our town just playing with shit trying to figure it out - they just didn't know any better. Loom farms anyone?

The message was clear enough, though: Just wait and see what we'll do when you have items worth stealing.

So you CLAIMED YOUR LAND at that point, RIGHT? Interesting you're able to deduct such a strong message from this relocated cupboard too. An 'easily replaced" cupboard too I bet.

That's when the palisade went up, not because there is anything valuable on the other side, but because I wanted them to work for it.

Oh, so NOW we decide to take advantage of the protection provided in-game. Okay. So when you see an unclaimed settlement, you assume people are living in it and don't raid it thinking it's abandoned, right? I mean, you got your seeds and setup farms legitimately by asking the person who planted the unclaimed crop you got them from, right?

The last griefing incident, a week ago or so, just demonstrated to what lengths they would go for ultimately petty results.

Here we go. The straw that broke the camels back. Let's see what terrible, permanent and ever lasting damage they did to your camp...

A palisade surrounded our common perimeter, and for most of it, pending the creation of our village, there was only the requisite five-tile distance between our plots, with practically every item being on one plot or the other, and nothing worth stealing was left on unstaked land. But on one day, I had to leave a gate open, so that one of our later settlers could access the village; and the gate itself was not on staked ground.

:/

So later that day, one or more griefers cut through two layers of branch fences located between two other plots, went through the open gate, went around all the plots, and stole or destroyed one of the few items left on free ground: the winepress.

HOLY FUCK WHAT A TERRIBLE CRIME. HOW DID YOU EVER COPE?

By the way, if "nothing worth stealing" was all you had on unclaimed land and this isn't such a huge issue, why even bother mentioning it? You're spending quite a few words on the wine-press here.

Yes, that's right, the bleepin' winepress, which anyone could build using a few boards.

Oh wai... Aren't you quitting because these griefers just ruined things completely for you? If it's just a few boards, why the deal?

They actually moved the churn that was in front of it to get to it. Futile, pointless, and the modus operandi for this game; even worse, the open gate was far inland, and could not be seen by someone on a boat on either of the rivers near us. So that means it was not even a case of seeing an opportunity: they actually went ashore, deliberately looked around for an entrance, and went in.

You mean people walk ashore in this game? The absurdity! You're right. There's absolutely no chance anyone would ever get off a boat there and just take a look around. They definitely were targetting your settlement. The evidence does not lie.

On this entire matter: I think I did explain the matter of the winepress, that it was precisely because it was worthless that it made the act of griefing so gratuitous.

Actually, staking my claim was the first thing I did. But that didn't stop them from moving the cupboard, did it? So if they can do that, why shouldn't they be back later in the game when they suspect us of having valuables? No, I'm sorry, I won't grind more with that in mind.

If you consider that this game is a massive grindfest, even for maintenance, even for eating, and that skills are pretty much a case of not only how much grinding you put in, but also when you joined, you will understand why, as a latecomer and a member of a smaller group, I'm sick of it.

Oh look, there's a sentence of truth in amongst all the crap. Who knew?

But the grinding is exacerbated by the griefing; don't you see?

I can also tell you of the time I went into the outer grids, carrying a boat around in level-X territory, using an alt with no skill to his name except what led to yeomanry and prospecting, and came back, sixty doses of rustroot extract and I don't know how many hours later, with nothing, because one of the mines the extract picked up was already claimed (by one of the usual suspects)

'Usual suspects' being these awful GOONS amirite? Now have you experienced them in this game yet or only just read about them?

Not Goons. As for my knowledge of them, I experienced them in other games, but I had no contact with them here. This in response to an accusation from the guy who, of all people, posted the transcript of Delamore's attempt at extortion.

I would gladly have dispensed with wasting time looking around for mines to concentrate on farming, but the current game all but forced me to.

We survived without metal for about a month. Trading only food for metal bars. We wanted metal to get the shinier stuff and because we had everything else at that stage. Chests were a big factor and again, this was before cupboards and seed bags.

It might have been different if it had a trading system that actually worked, wasn't reliant on an IRC channel I don't exactly feel like using, and wasn't driven by paranoia over the items being located back to their crafters.

This is more stuff you've read about, right?

Yes, stuff I've read about. I didn't know reading was a crime nowadays. As for metal, we were not really in a hurry to get it.

All of this points to the need to be economically self-sufficient, if only for security reasons; in other words, the same problem as with all sandboxes, where the pretense of a fully working trading system is blown apart, not aided, by the absence of regulation, which leads to a state of rampant paranoia

Said the man who's paranoid that "someone" is relocating his unclaimed cupboards just to show him "they mean business".

Paranoid, no; annoyed, yes.

Jorb and Loftar, I want to tell you this: I came into this game hoping that maybe you would actually manage something that no other game could: a cohesive virtual world where villages could coexist, land be settled, roads be built, alliances be made, and peaceful players be left in peace.

This happens.

Instead, I find bands of roving griefers, a grindfest at every level, a world where boats now trump everything, a hierarchy based on joining date, and this... community.

Tell you what, when you have one of the stronger players in the game (hey burgingham!) with his friends, standing at your docks killing everyone in your village that comes by, you might have a point. I really suspect your people left simply because they couldn't work the game out; which is a fair enough truth. If that's the case, don't write pages of bullshit.

Quite simply your friends left, you imagined scenarios from reading about them and you settled on someone elses land... When you finally settled your own land, you didn't claim it or protect it. And you're surprised that some cupboards and a wine-press got moved? Two things which are "easily replaceable". Oh but this is all part of some big conspiracy by someone to show you they're on to you.

Hide your cupboards ladies and gentleman. The elusive cupboard mover may strike again!

When the cupboard was moved, it was full, and it was only a matter of time before the contents themselves were lost.

I've heard of the Codexia business, but see, I preferred to leave early before finding myself in the same situation as you. I have better things to do.

(there should be far less rivers and a few isolated small lakes here and there)

There are plenty of places like this. Please don't judge the whole world based on your pathetic amount of experience in the Main Grid and an unuccessful mine hunting expedition with a 'no skilled alt'.

I've done a fair bit of exploration in the western grids. More of the same.

First thing I would do, though, is release that map of the eastern grid, because I'm tired of hearing about "Chernobyl", "Xanadu" or "Wayneville" without even knowing where they are, and their location being considered a quasi-state secret by those who do know, even though they seem to be legion.

What a great idea! When you found your village, everyone can know about that too so then everyone who likes can drop by and pay you a visit without having to work for it.

I'm sorry but you've just spouted pages of complete bullshit. Most of your problems are imagined. You said yourself, you hate "hearing about "Chernobyl", "Xanadu" or "Wayneville" without even knowing where they are". So get in a fucking boat and go looking for them, dipshit. There is a cartography skill, so knock yourself out.

My suggestion though: Stop reading the forums and actually play the game instead. There's no reason why you need to know about Chernobyl; Xanadu or Wayneville.

You know why I demanded to see those maps? Not because I intended to take advantage of them; I went out of the way specifically not to have to deal with that bullshit. I wanted to see them because I don't even have the slightest idea of the geography of the place, so when I read about your latest drama, it's impossible for me to know exactly what it's about.

Tell you what. Why not have all these eastern-gridders who want to deal with their own little eastern-grid politics start their own little eastern-grid forums if they don't feel like sharing? If it doesn't concern us, why the need to shove your little regional drama down our throats every time? If it does concern us, there's nothing I hate more than a state secret known to every side -- even enemies -- but not outsiders.

Second, I would drop every development on features which do not involve village management, trading, or security generally.

Said the man who:
1. Didn't claim his land.
2. Didn't build a pallisade.
3. Left a gate unlocked.

Security exists, you just need to use it. Again, stop imaging scenarios that don't exist.

/Server's down. So sue me.

1. I claimed my land.
2. I built a palisade, but it's quite lengthy when you have what, three players left to work on it?
3. Oh yeah, I'd have loved to get duplicate keys. Now can you direct me to some wrought iron?

And thank you, sir, for proving my point as to this... community. It's been a pleasure dealing with you.

[sabinati]

1. why didn't you track the scents then? or ask someone on the forum to help?
2. try building a 4 layer brick wall a pallisade is easy to build by yourself.
3. people trade wrought nuggets all the time, get on irc (oh wait you hate irc )

[warrri]

How can this thread get 9 pages long? The op proofed to have no idea about the ingame mechanics, nor about the "politics".

So please, just quit.

[Potjeh]

Because people love increasing their post counts, and it's the only active thread in the Inn.

[Chakravanti]

Jorb posted.

[Leonard]

This thread stays alive because its a fundamental problem of our and all communities. It has to be discussed once.

Ive seen this with a lot of new players. You did a few mistakes and the game repays you very harsh. This is mostly the mixture of new players accidentially griefing and established players griefing and raiding for teh lulz. Most guides are old, there is no tutorial for this rather complicated game, so newbs will do a lot of pointless or dangerous stuff. Established players dont and cant consider this, as new players dont have a sign telling: "Hey, Im new! I do a lot of wrong and stupid things because I dont know shit, but pls dont kill me!" and grief them or outright kill them, which makes them frustrated. Happened to me, seems as it has happened to Chakravanti too (and most of us, I guess) in his beginnings, so its understandable that newbs will rant about it because they are never told how to behave and what to do (or not to do). Especially as there is no support at all for new players, save for a few selected communities (which have all the kudos I can give).

I see a big problem for the future of this game if it is true and it will stay unmoderated, or in other words, community driven. Yes,its a sandbox game, we should get our asses up and help ourselves and each other. As it is now, the game allows a fairly free play IF you know HOW to do it, and avoid all confrontations or mistakes. But the game is just as good as the people's attitude behind their character, and if the community grows, alliances (of some sort) are formed, which may be good or very bad (depending on the members). I think its appropraite to draw a line to real world history, where ungoverned and/or unruled communities become anarchies - the rule of the fittest and strongest applies, and weaker people, poorer people, people with a different opinion are suppressed. And Alliances naturally try to get as many influence as possible, may it be land, items or strong players. In the end you will have a hard time without being in a guild/alliance/whatever, and especially and unmoderated game without rules at all encourages this a lot. But I fear it will destroy the feeling of the game of being unique and having an unique charakter.
And no, anarchies or alliances/guilds ruling are NO governments. An ideal government supports ALL people regardless of status. We are far away from this, as most people just strife for their personal lulz and profit. As long as the older players dont take a leading/guiding position and stop behaving like being in the kindergarten, new players will never get the concepts if they arent experienced in MMOs or are lucky.

[lordrio]

So please, just quit.

this