Goodbye, and good riddance

[Lothaudus]

I maintain my theory that the wine-press was taken precisely because it was meaningless, as if to say, "Look to what lengths we went for such a puny item; can you imagine what we'd do for something valuable?"

So what you're saying is that if someone re-organised all your chests around (for example), this would upset you terribly and lead you and all your friends to quit?

If that's really factored into your decision to quit, there's no hope for you. I'm sorry. I'm running a town and shit gets moved everywhere...

ALL. THE. TIME. "WHO THE FUCK PUT THIS SHIT HERE? PUT IT OVER THERE GOD-DAMNIT!"

If you seriously can't handle some cupboards or a wine-press being moved, you would've had NO HOPE of establishing a village.

Abandoned settlement? No, I don't think anyone could have thought that, if you consider that developments around the settlement were being made almost every day.

You're assuming someone is checking everyday. I didn't. When I was starting, if I found a gap in or a way in and there were seeds in that place that I didn't have yet, I got in. There's one particular farm North of Brodgar with a Pallisade up against the cliff but if you walk next to the cliff and palisade for long enough, you can eventually hook yourself around and get in.

No-one was there when I did it (about 2 months ago now) so we assumed "Can't be too active...". Whomever you are, I'm sorry but you had carrots. We left most of his crop there but we stuffed urns full (urns were epic containers as far as we were concerned and if straw baskets were lying around, the better!). Of course, all the claimed land we didn't touch because we didn't have the skills and we knew you could be tracked. We stuck only to unclaimed areas that no-one was about when we were looking.

My point: You're assuming a 'griefer' who's 'out to get you' yet what you describe is precisely what myself and my towns people did when we were setting up (herb tables, looms, crucibles and other items were also all acquired from unclaimed land. We had no idea how to use them mind you but we thought we needed them).

Why do you think the winepress was outside my claim? Because it's intrinsically worthless. Because I could hardly figure someone going there to steal or destroy something that could so easily be replaced.

So a worthless item that's not even within your claim gets moved and it's some deliberate attack? I'm sorry but this is nothing. If you really can't handle it and see it as griefing and don't decide to "keep shit on claimed land" then I'm surprised you lasted 2 months as it is.

And it takes a special kind of random nub to step off a boat, go on land around our settlement, seek an open gate, cut through two layers of branch fences, navigate around plots, and move a churn, just to get to a winepress, wouldn't you think?

See above about walking along a cliff and around a pallisade.

^This. I walked into Brodgar with an alt once and was immediately offered a house (with farm) by some random stranger. I didn't get the guys name and I didn't take the house as I didn't need it (though he showed it to me) but everyone we've met has been very helpful.

Well, except maybe the Germans. But we still love them all the same.

I'm afraid I've never experienced the same thing.

Then that is unfortunate and probably did factor in quite considerably. We were lucky in that we very quickly met people who wanted to help us. We also very quickly met people who wanted to kill us too but it's all fun in the end. If you can't have fun with that, then yes, that can be a bitch.

What actually made me leave, you ask? I would think that someone who runs a town that was raided, with I don't know how many months' worth of grinding lost in the process, would appreciate someone looking ahead and foreseeing the day when the same thing will happen to him, and coming to the conclusion that "no, all this grind really isn't worth it".

Yeah, the grind lead a lot of my peeps to leave. Grinding stuff that helps the community is always fun but grinding clay and looms just to finally learn lawspeaking so we could actually found a village is not. Then of course there was getting the bear teeth... Again we relied on helpful friends who could give those to us. Otherwise it would've been a long-time before we were able to do anything. We relied on my personal claim, partying giving rights and the kinlist, which worked quite well in the early days.

I've used that road, I saw how in several places it seemed to meander around plots (especially between Brodgar and Blandinsville; later I just took the crossroads because it was faster), I saw the placement of plots cutting off passages between ridges with no ostensible purpose other than to block the way through. That road is symbolic of a noble pursuit forever ruined by griefers.

You just mentioned it yourself. A game mechanic exists that allows you to immediately bypass all of the crap: Crossroads. Granted nubs will have no idea about them (hell, I travelled up and down the river from my first camp to Brodgar with boats stocked with erm... "borrowed" seeds and equipment because I didn't know you could port to Brodgar and back to Hearth while carrying a boat) but that is easily resolved by a tutorial and helpful information being available in the wiki. Something which is severely lacking at the moment.

Now imagine this over the entire game. Appealing, isn't it?

Except it's not over the entire game, is it? Once you get outside of Brodgar something amazing strikes you: There's a vast open space out there and the vast majority of it is completely untouched. There's enough land to build epic towns and yet still have an amazing amount of untouched, pristine wilderness around you.

You might have an argument if this was the map before the map reset (something I didn't get to experience) but once again you're imaging scenarios that simply don't exist. Given the amount of land Jorb and Loftar have planned (unlimited; randomly generated forever I believe) then there's really no reason to think anything other than poorly organised major towns will end up being maze-like.

... and again, Crossroads and knowledge on how to use those resolves that. IE: Existing game mechanics combined with better information delivery to new players.

So what if Jorb and Loftar gave everyone the ability to build public roads, over which nothing could be built? Well, I'm predicting that all of a sudden, those griefers would, like the mob, get into the paving business. Likewise, if palisade walls were reinforced so that they were actually nearly impossible to tear down, those griefers would suddenly find a use for all those trees they currently cut down for no reason.

Strawman. You've created an imagined scenario. If this griefing is so terrible, why not examples of what you specifically encountered that made all your friends leave (because for all intents and purposes, you still haven't left)?

It's an imagined scenario, but don't think it won't be precisely what happens if this is brought in.

So assuming:

1. Public roads are implemented.
2. They can be easily built by a single griefer (or perhaps epic armies of EVIL GOON GRIEFERS™).

... Then you assume they will be built everywhere. And yet, as I said before, this still isn't a problem because:

1. Crossroads.
2. Vast amounts of space.

It's much easier to move cupboards and wine-presses.

Finally, some example of this 'griefing'. In this case perpetrators have... built their camp in an area clearly defined on a publicly available map. The perpetrators being some nubs who couldn't check a map before they setup. You sure you weren't the ones griefing Cakeport by ruining their territory?

And by the way, one of my guys settled on Cakeport land when he started and before we'd decided to setup a village. Some dude with a sword rocked up one day. Know what he said?

"Welcome. You're on Cake Port land. You're welcome to stay. Just don't claim the area with a village. If you need help, ask."

Gosh, those awful Cake Portian griefer scum! How terrible! THEY MUST DIE!!!11!oneoneone

So you're saying we actually griefed Cake Province?

Yep. You built on their land. You probably put houses up (which are indestructable). As with my point earlier about us stealing seeds, one man's griefing may be anothers way of simply getting the things that he can't acquire and needs in order to survive the very early stages.

First, I was not the one who chose that initial location (nor our last one, for that matter). I had a chat with him after reading your comment, and here is what he said: "Well when we were settling it didn't occur to me that some bunch of idiots might have decided to claim a giant block of land they can't possibly use".

So you agree that there are vasts amount of land that people can't possible build roads all over then? Interesting you call them idiots too. Why? Just because they decide to claim a larger area for future growth? Doesn't that make you an idiot too if you claim a larger area than you need? I mean, obviously that wine-press was on land you weren't really using and those trees you left for aesthetic reasons, pfft. Unneeded!

After all, how did you expect to convey your own planned keeping of the trees to others who might wander through looking for wood or LP from tree-cutting? You either claim it or get a map up somewhere on a third party site; or you've got someone online at the time to say hello to visitors (you'd be surprised at the number of people who wander through your town when they think no-one's about ).

And I agree with him -- why don't you all go ahead and carve the entire hearthlands between yourselves while having neither the means nor the need for such large pieces of territory, just for the sake of making everyone pay a tribute? Then every noob who joins the game will be trespassing on somebody else's land, and

Once again vast open wilderness. If you want, head out East where Xanadu has posted (in these forums I might add, so you've got no excuse there according to your own argument) that anyone who builds out there is under their protection.

it would certainly fit in with the cliquish mentality of some of this game's players;

Said the man who definitely does not like GOONS and was setting up his own little selfish community of friends (How dare you!). Why didn't you join Brodgar if you hate those indepedent types? Membership is always open.

You see, what we did was not griefing, because we were unaware we were settling on someone else's turf

Exactly! And yet you assume that someone who cut down your trees deliberately targeted your settlement for griefing. You assume a cupboard was moved to 'prove a point' and not because someone was looking for seeds, found a cupboard, thought they'd take it with them and then got bored of crawling with it so they left it behind, or were possibly attacked by an animal they couldn't handle so they dropped it and fled.

If someone had built a house and claimed land right next to where you setup (IE: Pretty much like Novigrad did) you cry foul and declare GRIEFERS! Yet when you do it... Oh they're the dumb-asses for claiming all this land they didn't need and were never going to use anyway!

You don't get to have it both ways. Under your own terms, you're a griefer. Cake Port has no way of knowing you're not EVIL GOON GRIEFERS™ with alts setting up a little community ahead of a planned attack or to SPAI on them.

And that map you link to, we first saw it AFTER we settled there, and we decided to move upon seeing it. Otherwise, do you think we'd have gone and settled there anyway? After all, we would probably have been okay just by moving to the other bank of the river, outside of Cake Province, but we chose to leave the area altogether just to be safe.

My guy didn't even see the map when he built a farm there. Someone came around and yeah, we didn't found our village right next to the meadow he was near because we respected Cake Port's right to claim that land (obviously because we had intentions of claiming our own little piece of land).

Perhaps you did have friendly encounters with Cakelanders, but what were we to think when we saw the map, with the caption: "trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again"? (And actually, we wanted to set up a village eventually, and it would have been unacceptable to them, according to your comment.)

So you posted on the forum and asked right? I mean, you did have a whinge earlier that only 1/25th of people used these forums. So I assume you used them, right?

Right?

Not Goons. As for my knowledge of them, I experienced them in other games, but I had no contact with them here. This in response to an accusation from the guy who, of all people, posted the transcript of Delamore's attempt at extortion.

And I bet you imagined all sorts of terrible things after reading that one too! Know what happened? Nope. Of course you don't. But you'll imagine the worst possible scenario and use it in your QUITRAGE!

I've heard of the Codexia business, but see, I preferred to leave early before finding myself in the same situation as you.

You mean, still playing with most of the same people who were part of the initial settlement (plus some more n00bs) and building a new town that's a lot better organised than the initial clusterfuck that was Codexia? Yeah, that'd be way too much for fun you.

I have better things to do.

So you quit because you have better things to do than play a game? Fair enough. That's not called griefing though.

You know why I demanded to see those maps? Not because I intended to take advantage of them; I went out of the way specifically not to have to deal with that bullshit. I wanted to see them because I don't even have the slightest idea of the geography of the place, so when I read about your latest drama, it's impossible for me to know exactly what it's about.

And yet you think you've scouted the entire Western super-grids I bet but want a map to be handed to you for the rest? Do what we did. Get out off your ass and explore, map the fuck out of the place. Find what settlements are there and then find a spot that's not a complete clusterfuck of nearby towns and has plenty of room to move.

Tell you what. Why not have all these eastern-gridders who want to deal with their own little eastern-grid politics start their own little eastern-grid forums if they don't feel like sharing?

You did read these forums, right?

Let it hereby be known, throughout the Hearth, that ascendant Xanadu, calling out from the mighty Abora, roof of the world, proclaims The Peace of Herule throughout all lands in the eastern supergrid. Any Hearthling, or groups of such, who wish to secure for themselves the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of stuff, are free to claim whatever lands are still left unclaimed in the grid. All claims and persons in the grid are, effective immediately, under the complete and total protection of the Hounds of Xanadu. Xanadu calls on all the free Hearthlings of the eastern supergrid to sumbit maps of their Claims to the Scriptorium at Xanadu. In the event of a conflict between two or more parties in the eastern grid, Xanadu offers to mediate. Any disturber of the sacred peace of Herule will be met with swift justice. Anyone who wishes to report a disturbance of the Peace shall do so to the acting lawspeaker at Xanadu.

Xanadu bears no ill will towards existing villages in the grid, who shall remain in operation as functioning and independent political entities, under the protection of Xanadu.

What was that about the Eastern grid again?

If it doesn't concern us, why the need to shove your little regional drama down our throats every time?

Oh but apparently it does concern you! You've read it all!

And thank you, sir, for proving my point as to this... community.

Sadly, there will always be n00bies who simply don't get it and QUITRAGE or have a bad first experience. It's the nature of MMO's. Just don't assume your opinion is actually worth more than the shit it actually is.

Moving wine-presses dude... You try living in a community where someone's always nicking your plow; borrowing your pick-axe or just dumping random crap in cupboards without looking first. And these people are part of your village!

ve seen this with a lot of new players. You did a few mistakes and the game repays you very harsh. This is mostly the mixture of new players accidentially griefing and established players griefing and raiding for teh lulz. Most guides are old, there is no tutorial for this rather complicated game, so newbs will do a lot of pointless or dangerous stuff. Established players dont and cant consider this, as new players dont have a sign telling: "Hey, Im new! I do a lot of wrong and stupid things because I dont know shit, but pls dont kill me!" and grief them or outright kill them, which makes them frustrated. Happened to me, seems as it has happened to Chakravanti too (and most of us, I guess) in his beginnings, so its understandable that newbs will rant about it because they are never told how to behave and what to do (or not to do). Especially as there is no support at all for new players, save for a few selected communities (which have all the kudos I can give).

You're correct here. There are 2 major problems that Vetarnian really identifies:

1. External Information: I had to find out how to make nuggets from someone in-game today because I've always been a farmer previously and that information is not easily accessable in the wiki. It's simple shit but you just don't know it when you're a n00b and despite my 2 months in the game, I'm very much still learning all there is to know about it.
   
2. In-game Assistance: In the form of actually meeting people in-game and getting helpful advice from them. We were lucky in that we had people rocking up at our door saying "hi", probably made easier by the fact that we always had people online no matter what time it was.

Being a game presents challenges in that you're not online all the time to be there when someone else is so that you can get that help you need. Tutorials in the wiki would go a long way to resolving that initial hurdle. Including information about the in-game politics so people can avoid or use certain areas.

In the end you will have a hard time without being in a guild/alliance/whatever, and especially and unmoderated game without rules at all encourages this a lot.

There are only two ways to play.

1. Low-Key: Good for independents and small communities. Having your own small farm for your own needs, doing it all yourself. You can avoid a lot of trouble and attention this way. Assuming moving cupboards doesn't upset you terribly, you'll be fine and unlikely to ever be raided. Vetarnian could've done this but he just lucked out with founding right next to the planned Novigrad site; and his community lacked the willpower to setup again.
   
2. Involved: Large communities will form alliances. There will be natural division between them and the large communities will be more involved in the other mid-long game activies (PvP etc...). To play this way you need a large community (which at the moment seems to be around 5+ people online regularly). Small communities simply don't have the resources.

Those that don't have friends can always join one of the larger communities (Brodgar) but typically, everyone who joins wants to found their own village with their own friends. That's fine, just don't complain when you don't know shit and can't do shit. The best way would be if n00bs joined a town first off the bat, learned everything and then headed off, but they never do (we certainly didn't. It's more fun that way. ).

... and one cannot change the nature of a man.

Personally, still considering myself a n00b and having been involved or aware of most of the major political events in the last month or so, I just don't see the problem. Yeah, Codexia was raided and people were killed. Yeah some shit went down at the next attempt to setup a town. We learned a lot from it though and the game continues to be fun. The problem is not the game itself, it's the people and personality clashes behind it that drives most of the politics.

There are ways of dealing with that (peace treaties etc...) and working through those issues though. And it's all part of the fun.

Now if you'll excuse me, my Cast Iron Bars are ready.

[burgingham]

Jeez could you please stop those walls of text? Nobody cares. At least edit the parts you are quoting..