Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

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Re: Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

Postby Elirian » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:20 pm

Potjeh wrote:For someone who invokes psychology so often, you sure don't post a lot of peer-reviewed studies supporting your point.

Anyway, here's a thought: maybe chantrelle picking isn't a competitive job?

To draw an analogy to RL, let's say we have two farmers. Farmer A uses a tractor and makes 100 tons of a crop a year, working 8 hours a day. Farmer B uses a shovel and a hoe, and makes 2 tons of the same crop a year. Should the market cater to farmer B, and reward him with 50x what farmer A gets per ton? If yes, who is the poor sap that has to buy farmer B's crops and bear the weight of this inefficiency?

Fact is, chantrelles aren't in particularly high demand. Higher rewards on chantrelle picking would encourage more people to pursue an unneeded occupation, and those labours that are actually needed would suffer for it. Final result is that you have a decrease in global wealth, which results in everyone being poorer.

There are things that are in demand, and they generally give good returns on time investment. Silk, for example, actually nets you more wealth per hour than metalmaking, and everyone can do it.



You're still making real world analogies! The difference is that the objective of a free market is not to ensure that everyone is having as much fun as possible. H&H is not the free market, it's a game, a good game is one that people have fun playing. Very few people enjoy playing games where there are no losers, but very few people enjoy playing games where they lose all the time. So it's a good idea if the game provides everyone with an equal chance to be a winner. Like I keep saying, it's not about 'everyone being equal' or some bullshit, it's about people getting equal rewards for what they invest in the game, which is time. The person who works harder still pulls ahead, but he doesn't suddenly curve upwards astronomically as soon as he starts producing metal. Most games with reward systems do the opposite in fact, and have the reward system curve downwards. This game is one. It costs more LPs to go from skill level 1 to 2 than it does from 2 to 3. A lot of the systems in the game use square root in fact. As far as I can tell there aren't many systems in the game that provide increasing, rather than diminishing, returns on investment. There's a reason for that, as you know ;p

Oh, and btw, google skinnerbox if you're worried about whether the stuff in that post is legitimate. It's pretty well known stuff, which is why I didn't think I needed to post any studies :(
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Re: Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

Postby Potjeh » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:28 pm

So, are you going to subsidize all the unneeded labour yourself? Because I sure as hell am not running a charity.
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Re: Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

Postby Elirian » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:33 pm

Potjeh wrote:So, are you going to subsidize all the unneeded labour yourself? Because I sure as hell am not running a charity.


No one has to. Adjusting supply and demand is all that is needed for a quick fix. Then maybe you might see some 'silk towns', and other kinds of villages, rather than 'fail towns' and 'iron towns'.

Of course, there are plenty of more creative fixes too, assuming there is even a problem. I'm not saying there is, I'm saying there might be, it's likely, and if there is, it's worth looking into.
Last edited by Elirian on Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

Postby Avu » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:35 pm

Dude why don't you go play wow or any other them other great mmos out there if you love them so much.
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Re: Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

Postby Potjeh » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:36 pm

Except silk already provides a good return on time investment (slightly better than metal, I'd say). Chants are pretty much the worst possible way to acquire wealth. They're only a popular currency because they take low skills and zero infrastructure.
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Re: Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

Postby Elirian » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:37 pm

Avu wrote:Dude why don't you go play wow or any other them other great mmos out there if you love them so much.


Huh? I usually think of 'skinnerbox' as a pretty derogatory term, so this is an interesting take on what I've said, to say the least.
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Re: Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

Postby Elirian » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:40 pm

Potjeh wrote:Except silk already provides a good return on time investment (slightly better than metal, I'd say). Chants are pretty much the worst possible way to acquire wealth. They're only a popular currency because they take low skills and zero infrastructure.


Do you farm silk or metal? Are there any villages out there with a silk economy who are as successful as those with iron economies? If you answer silk and yes, then it's quite likely that no problem exists, and I wish you'd mentioned it earlier ;p
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Re: Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

Postby Potjeh » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:44 pm

I personally am full nature. I don't buy any metal right now because I have industry friends in my village. But in the previous world I got all my metal by selling cheese and silk. I got a chest of wrought for a merchant robe back in the day. And midnight blue was easily sold for 1 wrought a slice.

Right now I'm not bothering much with silk, since we're simply buying robes for everyone from our neighbours. And they seem very happy with the silk rates we're giving them.
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Re: Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

Postby Elirian » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:50 pm

Potjeh wrote:I personally am full nature. I don't buy any metal right now because I have industry friends in my village. But in the previous world I got all my metal by selling cheese and silk. I got a chest of wrought for a merchant robe back in the day. And midnight blue was easily sold for 1 wrought a slice.

Right now I'm not bothering much with silk, since we're simply buying robes for everyone from our neighbours. And they seem very happy with the silk rates we're giving them.


This only answers one of the questions, but it's something. So you're part of a mining village, not a silk village.
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Re: Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

Postby Potjeh » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:52 pm

No, it's an everything village. Some of our members make silk, but we need a lot more than we're making, so we buy it too. Oh, and when I say I don't bother with silk, I mean I made just two robes and a cape. Nothing on the scale of what I was making last world.
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