Exploiting Bugs

[kobnach]

OK, this is a meta question. I normally play in a law abiding way - in a meta-game sense. I don't grief, and I don't exploit bugs, even with low perceived risk of getting caught by the developers (and banned) or by fellow players (and lynched). That's because I'm playing a game, not engaging in a rule-less brawl. (I don't cheat at card games either.) I also generally play in a pro-social way - unless of course the game is inherently and primarily individual PvP, either in obvious ways or in the style of Paranoia.

Well the developers here have no problem with griefing, even when it involves bug exploiting. And a lot of the players seem to think this is primarily a PvP game; some at least seem to think it's semi-individual PvP.

So, my question to everyone is whether they think that exploiting bugs is a meta-game violation in H&H. Likewise for anything else I'd automatically class as anti-social and thus often a meta-game violation, such as destroying the last apple tree in an area, trashing the newbie area so there's no way for a newb to get its first XP without a long walk, removing objects from what's obviously the camp of some pre-yeomanry newbie, destroying objects that are likely useful and/or wanted and not causing problems, leaving rude or obscene messages on forums or in game (including e.g. plowing swastikas into the ground), etc.

I'm primarily interested in the question of bug exploits, mostly hoping to appease my conscience. However it occurs to me that the other questions are related, at least for me. So, what's the collective opinion of the forum posters?

[Colbear]

This is a non-consensual PvP game, which means it's by force a PvP-heavy game. It is a concern you always have to be aware of, rather than something you can carebear your way out of. And I say this as a carebear. If I wanted to play something where I couldn't get PvPed or stolen from without permission, I'd just play Dwarf Fortress.

Also, as far as meta-game violations, uh, what do you mean? A metagame violation would be one outside the scope of the game: always killing the mob in Dungeons and Dragons because you always bring Cheetos to your neckbeard GM. Anti-social acts aren't metagaming. Hacking into someone's account and logging in and removing their claim? That would probably be metagaming. Trashing the newbie area? Not so much.

[sami1337]

I think the main thing we have to keep in mind is that this is an alpha. And that exploiting is fine if you report it.
For example i exploited sparring with friends and it got me massive lp, but we did find out a couple things and we did report it. Was fixed the day after.
I also exploited building ovens on water and moving containers on water. Jorb found out and and fixed it with and removed our ovens as consequence to our exploiting (because we know it should not be done / possible).

There's some exploits like double sheep shearing and storing stuff in carts to pause the timer that you can still use, but it's up to you to use those or not. Sooner or later they will be fixed.

[Laremere]

Storing moths in baskets in carts doesn't work, they still die.

[kobnach]

Also, as far as meta-game violations, uh, what do you mean? A metagame violation would be one outside the scope of the game: always killing the mob in Dungeons and Dragons because you always bring Cheetos to your neckbeard GM. Anti-social acts aren't metagaming. Hacking into someone's account and logging in and removing their claim? That would probably be metagaming. Trashing the newbie area? Not so much.

Hmm, yes, hacking accounts would certainly be a meta-game violation. And hacking into the server (why think small?) would be another, possibly one that even these devs would not appreciate. (JTG, where are you? This may need testing )

What about e.g. running off the edge of the world in order to intentionally crash the server? How about doing that not to "grief" other players, but in order to exploit the item duplication bug?

What about other intentional exploitation of the item duplication bug? Someone I know got an inventory full of wrought iron using that one [I think the devs have now plugged the easy way of abusing it, since I didn't manage to dup anything the last time I tried it, ]

I've got some other examples, but I don't want to publicize them, in case our resident griefers haven't found them yet.

That's one type of meta-gaming. The other would be violating what I'll call unwritten rules. One of those rules - often explicit in many games - is "thou shalt not exploit bugs." But most games have others. In many cases, for example, farming newbies is heavily frowned upon; the devs implement code to prevent it eventually; meanwhile players who are known to do this are despised by other players, and may be PK'd on general principle. In this game, it looks like there's one player supporting an unwritten rule of "don't steal or snoop unless your stealth is better than my perception" - by PKing many of those he finds clues for - even when no one has complained and he had to trespass to find the clues. Other games have rules about appropriate language - and those who find workarounds for their built in censorship tend to be banned for it - after being enthusiastically reported by other players.

I guess as well as my concern about bug exploitation, I'm trying to explore the question of what other players think are appropriate meta-rules in H&H - things that may be possible in the games mechanics, but are not done by anyone who is respected or respectable. Obviously we won't all agree about these, but it's pretty clear I'm used to tamer games than most of you, leading to this curiousity. Equally obviously, you are an "anything goes" kind of guy - except you seemed to be a bit outraged by mass newbicide, even by a player who considered himself to be an abused/offended enemy of the village the newbies belonged to. This suggests that you, too, see implicit limits to appropriate behaviour.

[JTG]

Why don't you test it fag

[Jackard]

One of those rules - often explicit in many games - is "thou shalt not exploit bugs."

you aren't doing the devs any favors by not bugtesting their alpha

[kobnach]

One of those rules - often explicit in many games - is "thou shalt not exploit bugs."

you aren't doing the devs any favors by not bugtesting their alpha

Hmm, there's a huge difference between _finding_ a bug and continuing to exploit one that the devs have not yet gotten around to fixing. The former may be useful to the devs. About all the latter does is remind them of how much trouble a particular bug can cause - and distract them from implementing new content in order to fix or find a workaround for something like yesterday's repeated claiming of the RoB. Whoever noticed this could have been just as helpful to the devs by reporting the bug _and removing their claim_. If they'd reported it by private message, it wouldn't even have provoked imitation. (I'm assuming of course that yesterday's RoB claiming wasn't all done by the same player.)

[Edit: fixed typo.]

[Antique]

One of those rules - often explicit in many games - is "thou shalt not exploit bugs."

you aren't doing the devs any favors by not bugtesting their alpha

Hmm, there's a huge difference between _finding_ a bug and continuing to exploit one that the devs have not yet gotten around to fixing. The former may be useful to the devs. About all the latter does is remind them of how much trouble a particular bug can cause - and distract them from implementing new content in order to fix or find a workaround for something like yesterday's repeated claiming of the RoB. Whoever noticed this could have been just as helpful to the devs by reporting the bug _and removing their claim_. If they'd reported it by private message, it wouldn't even have provoked imitation. (I'm assuming of course that yesterday's RoB claiming wasn't all done by the same player.)

[Edit: fixed typo.]

At the same time, a lot of players feel that if an exploit is powerful enough, its WORTH bugging the dev team into fixing it. Delaying new content is preferable to a lot of broken old content.

[Jackard]

if people can (walk through palisades/block doors with indestructible objects) its going to happen, and it should happen or otherwise it won't be fixed