H&H LP Economics - After the Death of Bourgeoisie

[Tonkyhonk]

Laissez-faire is over.
Industrialisation has ended, Machines are rusted.
Bourgeois have left the land of H&H.
All the issues that the era of Capitalism created are wiped clean
and here comes the era of Anti-Capitalism, w5.
Is this intended?
this is merely a brainstorming thread to consider how the current LP system is affecting players mind. I LOVE the current LP system, and this thread is NEVER to bash it NOR to whine about it to get the old system back. those who just hate the current LP system and want to whine, please dont bother reading.
please keep in mind that i have not learned economics properly, thus not very familiar with economics and economical terms, especially in english. criticizm and corrections are always welcome, but please refrain from bragging or flaming.

im not sure if i can put my thoughts up right, but ill try.

the previous LP system = capitalism?
--- the more you play(work), the more LP(capital) you gain.
the current LP system = anti-capitalism?
--- no matter how long you play(work), you gain the same LP. there are methods to increase the gain, but when you belong to a well-established village, playing time hardly matters and everyone can be equal.

the boredom some players are whining about has something in common with the complaints i have heard about communism.

it is the feeling of "unfairness" in a way.
you dont have a personal gain from your own daily work and you start feeling lazier everyday. because, as long as you have curiosities ready and high enough intelligence, you gain LP every day without doing much.
the person next to you plays less and still gains the same.
the person next to you plays longer and still gains the same.

another unfairness is the feeling that you can never catch up with those who started earlier and keep playing. playing longer hours do not let new players catch up with old players so easily, or less likely.

on the other hand, there is also another "fairness" in the system. equality of outcome?
no matter hard you try, there is a limit you can gain LP per hour/day, thus the gap between those who have time and those who dont are much smaller now, not to mention that botting makes extremely smaller differences, compared to the previous system.

this actually gives many players a certain relief, they can do what is needed, chores, without worrying about losing potential LP. merchants or recruiters or village leaders who spend more time talking or travelling, LS or chieftains who build govt. structures, fishermen whose LP gain was horrible before, villagers who are assigned to do all menial works such as wall building, patrolling, cupboard making, etc., rangers who track long way to find perpetrators (but not enough time to stop to forage or hunt) and so forth.

but for those who were NOT used to do "no-profit" work, but instead always went out to hunt, mine, grind flour and make doughs, or just go raiding and killing or whatever effective to gain lp, all their joy(lp gain) is gone from the sight. before, everything they did earned them LP and they acted accordingly. instead, now, almost everything they do have turned into menial "labour" with no outstanding "visible" gain, which bores them to death.

ive been wondering why so many people hate the current LP system while i love it. indeed, i do stay logged in for less time than before, although it is not out of boredom. i know im feeling a bit lazier myself too. i tend to think, oh well, meh, ill do it tomorrow. (which is sometimes better, i can spend more time in real life lol)

and this recent topic on economics on the forums, which was actually derailed by jorb into this, has reminded me what J&L had scripted everywhere at the end of w4. i started to wonder if devs are doing this on purpose.
if this is actually intended to work like anti-capitalism, are we going to face the next stage?
or am i just lost as a noob in economical gibberish and not seeing the phenomena correctly? lol

what do you think?

*edit 1*

ok, "no matter how long" was an exagerration.
the system does reward those who tries harder to increase the gain. but the outcome is harder to recognize instantly. it will show a significant difference after a while, just a matter of time and efforts,
however, the general public, who does not see the difference to come at once, can easily fail to see it coming, and the motivation doesnt last without patience.
isnt that how productivity in communism countries failed at some point?

*edit 3* good point, gotta refute this lol (page 3)

The old LP system was based on labor. If you performed a certain task, you'd receive a certain amount of LP. The reward's amount was hardcoded into the game and was nontransferable. Basically, the workers owned the means of LP production and there was no LP-based currency. This would appear to be analogous to the labor theory of value. This is the (*cough* discredited *cough*) theory that forms the operating framework for Marxists and several other varieties of collectivist.

The new LP system is based on capital. You can only gain LP if you possess curiosities (capital goods). And you can trade curiosities. Their prices are based (roughly) on supply and demand. This is analogous to the marginal theory of value. I would regard this as a more capitalist system.

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*edit 2*
ive finally decided the direction for this thread.
if you would, please post how the current LP system is affecting your game play, e.g., your play style change, village management situation, your motivations, or anything at all significant you feel.

thanks in advance for your inputs!

[Gorbane]

I'm not sure I follow you. how am I supposed to respond?

and this recent topic on economics on the forums, which was actually derailed by jorb into this, has reminded me what J&L had scripted everywhere at the end of w4. i started to wonder if devs are doing this on purpose.
if this is actually intended to work like anti-capitalism, are we going to face the next stage?
or am i just lost as a noob in economical gibberish and not seeing the phenomena correctly? lol

what do you think?

To answer these: if you look hard enough, you can find similarities and metaphors just about anywhere. although I believe that having the new system work similarly to socialism was an intentional joke on J&L's part.

Also, am I the only one to notice that the in earlier worlds, the only abusable insects were ants (socialists, obviously). Whereas in W5 we get to terrorize the capitalist spiders, ladybugs and dragonflies?

[cloakblade]

another unfairness is the feeling that you can never catch up with those who started earlier and keep playing. playing longer hours do not let new players catch up with old players so easily, or less likely.

Combat caps.

[Saphireking65]

Actually, people mostly end up making/finding curios for themselves and rarely share with their village mates. For example, we don't have a huge stockpile of bronze steeds up for grabs cause we know someone will just take them all and keep them for themselves, so I just end up not making them for anyone unless they ask for one. At least that's how it works in my village.

[cloakblade]

Actually, people mostly end up making/finding curios for themselves and rarely share with their village mates. For example, we don't have a huge stockpile of bronze steeds up for grabs cause we know someone will just take them all and keep them for themselves, so I just end up not making them for anyone unless they ask for one. At least that's how it works in my village.

Great example of this is the thread by Sevenless:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18647&p=216441#p216441

[Saphireking65]

another unfairness is the feeling that you can never catch up with those who started earlier and keep playing. playing longer hours do not let new players catch up with old players so easily, or less likely.

Drinking tea before signing off will give you a boost depending on quality, and a pearl necklace will give a 40% boost. There are ways to increase your lp gain, you just have to work for them.

[bitza]

this would all be correct if the only thing that mattered at all was LP. yes, LP is still the king of everything, but the stat grind is a direct result of effort, and so is the quality push. both of these can affect your LP gains.

one obvious example is intelligence affecting your max curio rate.

another example, you need x amount of str to mine the next level copper deposit, which is of higher quality than your current copper node. collecting this higher quality ore will improve the quality of your bronze steeds, which increases your total LP gain. so will planting higher quality trees, hunting bears to make higher bonesaws, and so on.

pushing quality on silk will improve ranger's gear, adding to your perception and making it easier to forage, along with adding quality to merchant robes for a higher int bonus.

the list goes on and on. this statement:

--- no matter how long you play(work), you gain the same LP.

is completely untrue.

[Saphireking65]

In the end, everything comes down to clay.

[bitza]

this statment, however, is 100% correct

[Jackard]

Actually, people mostly end up making/finding curios for themselves and rarely share with their village mates. For example, we don't have a huge stockpile of bronze steeds up for grabs cause we know someone will just take them all and keep them for themselves, so I just end up not making them for anyone unless they ask for one. At least that's how it works in my village.

Great example of this is the thread by Sevenless:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18647&p=216441#p216441

sounds like he just has a shitty village