ITT: We Discuss Whether free Will exists

[jcm2214]

In my opinion we are subject to mechanism and lack free will. Let us discuss and explain further now.

[Ninijutsu]

Quantum mechanics tells us that reality at a microscopic level is probabilistic in nature (electrons, protons), and therefore is fundamentally unpredictable. However, at a macroscopic scale, main events are most likely set in stone and deterministic.* Combining these two ideas, it's likely that there are events in our lives that are going to happen no matter what, but there is minor deviation in the path we take in between, due to the scale of the processes that comprise our consciousness as we know it.

*Think of it this way: let's say we copied the state of the universe as it was exactly one year before the beginning of world war 2, as if it were on our computer (to simplify the example). Now, if we pasted this state of the universe into trillions of different identical realities running at the same time, every single one of these realities would end up in world war 2 in a year. It makes logical sense if you think about it a bit.

[DDDsDD999]

Quantum mechanics tells us that reality at a microscopic level is probabilistic in nature (electrons, protons), and therefore is fundamentally unpredictable. However, at a macroscopic scale, main events are most likely set in stone and deterministic.* Combining these two ideas, it's likely that there are events in our lives that are going to happen no matter what, but there is minor deviation in the path we take in between, due to the scale of the processes that comprise our consciousness as we know it.

*Think of it this way: let's say we copied the state of the universe as it was exactly one year before the beginning of world war 2, as if it were on our computer (to simplify the example). Now, if we pasted this state of the universe into trillions of different identical realities running at the same time, every single one of these realities would end up in world war 2 in a year. It makes logical sense if you think about it a bit.

I disagree with the sentiment that deviation in the path would still end with the same result. The notion that macroscopic events are "set in stone," is very misguided, what evidence would you have regarding the predestination of said events?

[Ninijutsu]

It simply seems like a logical conclusion to me. Let me give a different example: You have a factory-new, functioning, loaded gun, and you fire the gun. The gun discharges the bullet as it should, and it hits a target. Now, if you rewind this scenario many times and replay it, under the exact same conditions that previously existed, do you think the gun would eventually malfunction and not discharge the bullet properly, just because of, perhaps, a positional difference in an incredibly puny, microscopic electron of one of the many atoms in a grain of gunpowder? I don't think so. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd need some convincing (edit: meaning a counter argument elaborating on your saying i'm misguided)

[LadyV]

It simply seems like a logical conclusion to me. Let me give a different example: You have a factory-new, functioning, loaded gun, and you fire the gun. The gun discharges the bullet as it should, and it hits a target. Now, if you rewind this scenario many times and replay it, under the exact same conditions that previously existed, do you think the gun would eventually malfunction and not discharge the bullet properly, just because of, perhaps, a positional difference in an incredibly puny, microscopic electron of one of the many atoms in a grain of gunpowder? I don't think so. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd need some convincing (edit: meaning a counter argument elaborating on your saying i'm misguided)

Yes because we are the ones firing the gun. We can choose not to fire, act stupidly and it misfires or worse, and even we can choose not to buy the gun. We are not a item. We are a living being and in spite of situations we can always choose to do something different. We may be inclined toward a path but we can always change our mind. Free will exists. We however have to choose to use it.

[Ninijutsu]

It simply seems like a logical conclusion to me. Let me give a different example: You have a factory-new, functioning, loaded gun, and you fire the gun. The gun discharges the bullet as it should, and it hits a target. Now, if you rewind this scenario many times and replay it, under the exact same conditions that previously existed, do you think the gun would eventually malfunction and not discharge the bullet properly, just because of, perhaps, a positional difference in an incredibly puny, microscopic electron of one of the many atoms in a grain of gunpowder? I don't think so. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd need some convincing (edit: meaning a counter argument elaborating on your saying i'm misguided)

Yes because we are the ones firing the gun. We can choose not to fire, act stupidly and it misfires or worse, and even we can choose not to buy the gun. We are not a item. We are a living being and in spite of situations we can always choose to do something different. We may be inclined toward a path but we can always change our mind. Free will exists. We however have to choose to use it.

These are statements, but you aren't presenting any evidence or logic to enforce these statements. Why do you hold this position?

[DDDsDD999]

It simply seems like a logical conclusion to me. Let me give a different example: You have a factory-new, functioning, loaded gun, and you fire the gun. The gun discharges the bullet as it should, and it hits a target. Now, if you rewind this scenario many times and replay it, under the exact same conditions that previously existed, do you think the gun would eventually malfunction and not discharge the bullet properly, just because of, perhaps, a positional difference in an incredibly puny, microscopic electron of one of the many atoms in a grain of gunpowder? I don't think so. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd need some convincing (edit: meaning a counter argument elaborating on your saying i'm misguided)

Yes because we are the ones firing the gun. We can choose not to fire, act stupidly and it misfires or worse, and even we can choose not to buy the gun. We are not a item. We are a living being and in spite of situations we can always choose to do something different. We may be inclined toward a path but we can always change our mind. Free will exists. We however have to choose to use it.

Where's your scientific evidence for this "free will?" If there were two copies of the same universe with absolutely no changes, be it microscopic or macroscopic, how could the result of the same event in each universe be different? The chemical make-up of each human's brain would be the exact same, of course. I don't see how variance could result from the person.

[Ninijutsu]

Where's your scientific evidence for this "free will?"

I'd like to note that this is also just as much a philosophical question as a scientific one. We can't gather empirical data to support the theoretical scenarios I brought up, for instance.

[LadyV]

Well for me I am a person of faith. But I do follow science. If you must have science then here.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm

http://www.selectsmart.com/DISCUSS/read.php?16,837348

As i said before we are not the item. We are living beings. Our will is what affects our lives. The gun example I already answered. We dont have to fire a gun ever but we might. Maybe we fire it safely or act stupidly and cause it to misfire... Whatever the case it is a result of our action. The gun exists. Reforming the same conditions in multiple tests would probably result in the same gun but it does not dismiss we can choose not to shoot.

I know this wont satisfy some of you but can you disprove action is a choice? You are asking me to prove free will. Im asking you to prove it does not exist.

[Ninijutsu]

LadyV, to put it simply, you still have provided absolutely no evidence to support let alone prove your claim, and you have not presented a counter argument to any of our claims.

can you disprove action is a choice? You are asking me to prove free will. Im asking you to prove it does not exist.

I have not asked you to do anything, and I also understand that it cannot be proven that free will exists or not. I have, however, given a logically based argument for determinism in macroscopic events which you have not tried to address.

This topic interests me deeply and I'd like to make progress in this discussion, but you aren't helping.