Just a few little issues...

[Cookie]

Long: skip if not interested

I feel like a home buyer being taken on tour by a starving barracuda of a real estate agent. It seems like only yesterday I went from fleeing the congested urban neighbourhood on the first map, to a nicely gentrified new world. But this too has evolved mercilessly into a bad neighbourhood being terrorized by an active gang. So here I am house hunting again.

Wanted, a nice rural crime free district for my move-in condition hobby farm, within comfortable commuting distance of urban retail districts (shopping!) and upscale professional services: rangers, high-psyche jewellers, foresters etc.

And what is my real estate agent showing me?

"...a new future awaits you on the off-world colonies..."

No, no, it's not quite that bad! But as I stand here surveying the new property, perhaps you can understand my doubts.

The new combat system is... not going to work for me. I know, I know, I am a total woos, and stupid to boot, but I know enough about my own capabilites to say that keeping an eye on the top of the screen for combat advantage, the bottom of the screen for coins of initiative and the middle of the screen to try to actually click on my opponent, all while trying to press buttons that may or may not be hot keyed is not going to happen in my world. From here on in melee combat and unarmed combat are going to be things that other people do. I can't. I have minor perception issues that make switching attention through so many things take long enough that my chances of hitting that window of opportunity when I'm supposed to make my hit a very poor probability. And when I say a poor probability, I'd like to mention that I buy those 2$ 10 million dollar prize lottery tickets once a month or so and think my 1/20,000,000 odds of winning are slightly better.

There will, of course be some super gifted, superbly reflexed, dedicated gamers who are going to master the system, fine tune it and express puzzled disbelief that everyone can't do it, and hey, they might even be in the majority, but I am thinking of the poor noob attacked by a super gifted, superbly reflexed, dedicated player killer. You can in fact now evade a murdering player killer who aggros onto you no matter how poor your combat stats are. The exact defensive combat sequence is, Slip, Slop, Slip again, Jump, Slide, Evade, Dash, Dodge and then run like hell for the woods.

What's that you say? I'm afraid our little noob here would like to know how to light his torch. He hasn't quite mastered that yet and those woods he is supposed to run for are dark...

So my take on it is that the combat system is Not For the Faint Hearted although I wouldn't go so far as to say it's not gonna work.

The result of the overhaul of the combat system is that hunting is gonna be a bit... perplexing.

I'm pretty sure that ants were introduced to supply a source of protein for noobies who had yet to master the brutal art of bludgeoning a bear to death. But since it is now much easier to kill a bear than an ant, chocolate covered ant soldiers are going to be the delicacy compared to bear meat.

In fact, interestingly enough, it is actually easier to kill a bear than it is to tackle a little herd of mouflon.* If you screw up on penning them up the bear is going to de-aggro once it ko's you and you can stagger back to your feet to try again. The other nine mouflon will not de-aggro so you will stagger back to your feet to meet a murderous herd of herbivores. If you want to pen in a bear it takes about four to six fires placed around you. The mouflon may require a few more. Well, I like a challenge so this is not a complaint but an observation. Str is the easy stat. It's charisma that is gonna take some serious stalking.

Now, I haven't tested the hunting system enough yet to figure out if deer are easier to kill than ants -I have my doubts- but this is not the most logically intuitive system when ants and deer are competing furiously for the crown of King-of-the-Woods and bears and boars are licking their wounds and muttering that they coulda been a contender.

I will now wander out of the woods back into my house-hunting with starving real estate agent metaphor. There I stand surveying the house that I am willy-nilly about to buy. The bank has ruled my mortgage application nsf so it is cash down and there is only one house up for grabs. There is no nice neighbourhood of professionals prepared to sell me q179 lumber, or craft me thimbles and rings. There is no damn infrastructure at all: no mines, no roads, no boats, no villages, no dollar store, (I am a cheap shopper.) no rangers, no nothing. I'm not in a nice rural district. I am in the black forest of our dark ancestry with the winds howling and mankind taking the first blood lust steps of chipping stone to make a tool with which to kill.**

And even the real estate agent is willing to admit that the house I am about to buy has a few little issues. Yeah. The plaster is down in a dusy heap, the lathes stick out like squaw wood*** under a pine tree. The entire staircase to the second floor is missing. Hmmm. If I move into this place I am going to be living in renovations for a long, long while: Major renovations which are going to start with a jury rigged ladder since the bathroom is upstairs, and please god, I hope the plumbing works at least.

Now what would you do, confronted with a situation like this? Long months of hammering and plaster dust, peeing in the alders in the dark, bringing buckets of water inside to wash with, hanging blankets over the windows not to use as curtains but to cut down the drafts, the flickering light of a forty watt about to blow the antiquated fuses...

I'm gonna turn around and tell that real estate agent what I think with just one word.... "SOLD!"

I love an adventure!****





*I never see prehistoric sheep when I see a mouflon facing frontwards. I see a funny looking alien with huge bulging round white eyes. I told you I had perceptual difficulties.

** A tree. Not another mankind.

*** Squaw wood is those little dead branch stumps that stick out brittly under a pine tree, rather apt to give you lacerations if you try to move through the woods with any kind of speed, but invaluable for kindling.

**** But I still bet the first time I log on into the new world it will not only be dark, but a sliver of a waning moon, and the night just started.

[Bigfish]

For critique and ideas you may reply here

[sabinati]

good post cookie. badfish stop posting.

[Rhiannon]

Excellent post Cookie, and you really nailed my feelings down about the whole thing. I myself have been wondering how life will be like now for my character without meat/sausages if hunting is as over complicated as the combat...lol I'm here to play a game not fly a damn space shuttle through an asteroid field..LOL When mining in Eve takes less multi-tasking than killing a fox in a sandbox you know it's a bit much...lol Guess we'll all muttle through somehow and find some way to have a it of fun even without being able to hunt anything, But good post none the less.

[lithos]

The combat isn't that bad. It's simpler than EvE's combat, and if you were to choose to you could even make WoW's combat more complex than the current combat system(though normally wouldn't).

It's simple, choose a repeating attack for the aggression effect you want and choose the type of evasion you want to use. Then wait for the red bar to fill up how much you want it to to choose your accuracy. With a few other effects that modify how fast your/enemy bar recharges, how fast various requirements fill up, or energy requirements. Admitably I don't have every skill filled out or can fight the "strongest of strong" enemies but it's pretty simple to figure out after you figure out what all the symbol crap is in on skill descriptions.

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edit I do see the problems though. There are 5 types of energy(red/aggressive, blue/defensive, intuitive, battle intensity, and health) with most skills requiring/affecting 2 to 4 of those. I could see intuitive/battle intensity(one or the other) removed without compromising the combat system at all, which is kind of silly.

Also the skill descriptions are kind of WTF in exactly what they do and how various types of energy actually affect your combat potential.

[Grog]

like it

[theTrav]

Nice post, A few parts of it are somewhat appropriate for the critique forum, I must admit I was in critique mode when I read it so it took a few tries to get past that and enjoy the flavor text

Here's a few opinions on the things that seem to bug you

The result of the overhaul of the combat system is that hunting is gonna be a bit... perplexing.

I have suggested many many times that hunting is a poor place to employ combat mechanics intended for PvP. The devs seem to have been grudgingly accepting this, last I heard their position was that you should be able to hunt via melee & unarmed, but it should be weak sauce.

Their plan is for ranged combat to be the be all end all. Personally I think that's a good start, but not sufficient with the small client res they have and the speed of the characters. I'd rather see a combination of ranged attacks, traps, and spears with moves specifically designed to take down charging bears.
Oh yeah, and I think hunting should be risky if you're trying to take down carnivores.

If you want to pen in a bear it takes about four to six fires placed around you.

This is on the way out, Loftar has said several times that he plans on having bears (and other strong animals) break down weak buildings. Last I spoke to him about it he was tossing up between letting them smash down palisades or not (I'm hoping not)

[Cookie]

The combat isn't that bad. It's simpler than EvE's combat, and if you were to choose to you could even make WoW's combat more complex than the current combat system(though normally wouldn't).

It's simple, choose a repeating attack for the aggression effect you want and choose the type of evasion you want to use. Then wait for the red bar to fill up how much you want it to to choose your accuracy. With a few other effects that modify how fast your/enemy bar recharges, how fast various requirements fill up, or energy requirements. Admitably I don't have every skill filled out or can fight the "strongest of strong" enemies but it's pretty simple to figure out after you figure out what all the symbol crap is in on skill descriptions.

Thus speaks a super gifted, superbly reflexed, dedicated gamer. (Compliment intended)

Somehow I get the impression that you may have played with other combat systems before Haven and Hearth. Just a hunch.

You are right, of course. Taken in the correct light with the right attitude, studied logically, experimented with in several different combat situations, I probably could figure out one combination of attack and defense maneouvers that would work without me having to check combat intensity, initiative and the other two or three factors. And while I'm not sure it would work equally successfully in all combat scenarios: bear, herd of mouflons, or player killer wanting a Cookie scalp, I can't claim that I am incapable of learning a complex system like this.

And honestly, I do have some previous experience with another comparable complex system involving fast reflexes, multiple sources of input, multiple controls with different functions, standardized rules for interaction, and the intuitive prediction of other people's next action. If I use that system I am guaranteed to become a deadly juggernaut of a uncontrollable killing machine. Unfortunately I am talking about getting a driver's license...

If I couldn't master that, I don't think I can master the combat system. Trust me. No. Melee combat and unarmed combat are going to become things that other people do.

[Peter]

You hit the nail on the head with that, Cookie. In my own words, I'd just say that combat is too annoying to use, but you've put it better.

[lithos]

I agree that the combat system is bigger than it needs to be. You could remove 1 or 2 mechanics and essentially still have an identical system, especially so if you add a couple more status effects.

The combat system is also in desperate need of targeting aids. something like a hotkey that gives you a list or all available targets(similar to when more than 1 thing is attacking you).

As for being familar with combat systems I guess you would be right. When I see a bunch of things working together I have a habit of wanting to take them apart and get their feeling.
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I also understand completely not being able to do what you want. For most of my life I've been fighting the English language, from speech impediments to reading and writing disabilities.