World's End

[Yolan]

OK, I'm going to come clean. I like building cities. ;_0 Brodgar and New Brodgar both had their problems and ended up as ghost towns, but much was learned each time.

Recently I got my grubby hands on some iron in an outer grid. At first I thought I would keep it small, but my longing for a city is too great!!

So, here is the _idea_. Nothing is set in stone just yet.



=Worlds End=

Location: Outer rim.
Resources: Iron mine close nearby. Tin also available
Layout: The layout in New Brodgar was way, way better than old Brodgar. I would copy it in most respects. That is, 20x20 square plots, 5 square alleys, 11 square streets.

EXCEPT

A) Make a big square in the middle to begin with. Let people have stalls their right from early on. In New Brodgar we built a massive square, but it was too far from the village claim and we never got around to extending our influence there. As a result it was never used.
B) Walls. We need them. However, why not build them as the city expands? Start off with inner rings, and as we add people, we add layers of walls. What you end up with is a kind of Minas Tirith effect. Travel between rings could be purely via signposts, with the gates kept locked. Given iron access, with enough people making bricks we could eventually go for brick walls.


So, I'm interested in design ideas. Esp. from people who previously lived in Brodgar New Brodgar.

Firstly, I'd love grid map submissions that could show how to work in ringed walls with the individual plot design.
Secondly, I'd be interested in hearing how immigration could be organised so that we get people to start there fairly easily, without being griefed too bad. Is it possible? A gated portal stone?

-Yolan

EDIT:

As per the thread in the recruitment board, yes, we are open for immigration.

REQUIREMENTS: As far as skills, none. We are not an elite city. We welcome, but do not require, strong players. In fact, you might actually wish to make a new character with us. As mentioned above, your time is your own, so we are not recruiting people for various roles. Supply and demand, and player ingenuity, are what we are relying on to sort things out. Please contact me if you are interested.

I must require that you have a some kind of history on this forum, so I can check to see that you have a decent reputation. PM's coming from people with accounts made within the last few days/weeks will probably be ignored.

[Yolan]

By the way, people who are not familiar with either Brodgar or New Brodgar might want to read the threads on them to understand the basic concept.

To put it in a few sentences, its about attempting to have a non-communistic, and hence, far bigger scale city than usually possible by having all members own their own little bit of land within the city. Rather than working purely for the common good, players are expected to do their own thing, using the land they have. The idea, never fully realised as yet, is to test the possibilities of emergent complexity in the game. Can we have a thriving little city state on a scale not yet seen in this world?

The first attempt, Brodgar, failed mostly from bad design. New Brodgar however, was on its way to realizing the dream of a real city when disaster struck in the form of raiders. The fatal weakness was a complete lack of protecting outer walls, having only individual walls. This time I want to see both combined.

EDIT: I should also point out that New Brodgar was not built near any good resource, let alone iron. Having a source of iron nearby should make living in the city a much more attractive option.

[Allumeuse]

As one that lived and still lives in New Brodgar it seems to me that for many things the land plots are too small. If a player is active and wishes to pursue more than one industry it is very likely there will be not enough room. It is hard to grow the several crops you need in one plot. If you wish to be self sufficent with carrots and grapes and fibre and also to have the mulberrie trees and the silk as an example, it can be managed but every tile must be taken and always there is the problem of where to replant. You trip over the beehive to reach the grapes and the mulberrie tree must be in the place inconvenient to reach the door of your house.

In the same way if you keep the cows you need the field of seed upon which to feed them, the dairy, and the pasture for if you are not able to log in and they must survive with nothing in the trough. What then if you wish to also do the leather because the cows for you do not take enough time? There is not space for the tanning tubs and the drying racks.

It is therefore my suggestion that as you expand the rings you make the plots of land to be larger, but also designate for them the usage, so that if one takes the great plot it is understood that in this district are to be the fields and in this district the orchards.

With your enterprise I wish to you the very good luck.

[Yolan]

As one that lived and still lives in New Brodgar it seems to me that for many things the land plots are too small. If a player is active and wishes to pursue more than one industry it is very likely there will be not enough room. It is hard to grow the several crops you need in one plot. If you wish to be self sufficent with carrots and grapes and fibre and also to have the mulberrie trees and the silk as an example, it can be managed but every tile must be taken and always there is the problem of where to replant. You trip over the beehive to reach the grapes and the mulberrie tree must be in the place inconvenient to reach the door of your house.

In the same way if you keep the cows you need the field of seed upon which to feed them, the dairy, and the pasture for if you are not able to log in and they must survive with nothing in the trough. What then if you wish to also do the leather because the cows for you do not take enough time? There is not space for the tanning tubs and the drying racks.

It is therefore my suggestion that as you expand the rings you make the plots of land to be larger, but also designate for them the usage, so that if one takes the great plot it is understood that in this district are to be the fields and in this district the orchards.

With your enterprise I wish to you the very good luck.

Thanks very much for the good feedback.

I agree that when it comes to plot size 20x20 doesn't allow you to do many things. However, if they are much bigger, then don't you start to face really long walks to get around? One thing New Brodgar never got off the ground was a functioning market square. If World's End has one right from the get go, people can focus more on specialisation of a couple of things, because they know they can always walk around the corner to pick up what they want.

That said, maybe 25x25 is a better compromise. I also really like your idea of making land size increase the further from the center ring you go. Maybe the first few layers could be 20x20, then 25x25, then 30x30 after that, and finally 40x40. Only problem I forsee there is again if the city gets very big you end up with more sprawl and less of a city like feeling.

***

Would appreciate grid designs that I can start trying myself on a swath of forest I've set aside.

Would also like interested people to PM me for HS details if they want to help with the planning stage. At this stage, however, I will only share the HS with people who have an established forum account so I know I can trust them.

[Grog]

give priviledged twoners a 2nd spot where they can grow trees or grow cows+sheep
or make those public...

[Avu]

What walking do you really need anyway? Sodom has 35*35 plots with a 9*9 grid structure and the plots sometimes feel cramped. All the inter villager dealings can be done at the idol anyway. Learn to use alcohol and crossroads and if you want to move large amount of stuff inside just use a wagon.
Make sure the mine is as close to the idol as possible and you should be fine. And do force all the villagers to make the village wall. That should be priority number one since food isn't an issue anymore.

P.S. You're a masochist.

[Valten21]

I really like the sound of this... I had also plans to move to New Brodgar before it got raided.. but then it got raided. I really like the idea of the city like feeling, where building kind of tower around you in cramped allies and stuff! (It does sound that great, but from a role playing perspective I think it would be cool, to have this industrial city - un-like any other in the world at the moment) Unfortunately, as Avu pointed out, it might not actually work.. just be really cool. But anyways, I perhaps might be interested in a plot here!

[hron]

I have a question, im kinda new player and for me world is very very big... how for gods sake, a litle mouse like me could for egzample join bigger city like one you guys mention? How to start looking for it? Boat and random direction is kinda pointles.

[saltmummy626]

You want to build Minas Tirith? youll need a mountain for that, and how you gonna keep orcs out when nobody can seem to keep noobs and greifers out? lol good idea though, I can understand the need to expand to build, to make everything as good as it can be. good on ya bro, keep us updated on how progress on your minas tirith goes.

[DatOneGuy]

I've attempted squares many times so this is just some input from my attempts at it...

Don't do 20x20 it's way too small, if you have that reserved for the smaller inner plots alone that works fine (as you suggested earlier) but anything past that is just bleh!

What I'd really suggest would be to have the village instead of radiating from a center point, be aside of it. Despite the way every villager can live on their own and have their own plot to completely develop perhaps you could consider having let's say 4 quadrants of the city.

North East Quadrant: Housing
South East Quadrant: Blank (Future housing?)
South West Quadrant: Town 'Center' (Trading circle and all that jazz, have the mine super close all that)
North West Quadrant: Faciltiies, kitchens, sewing, etc. For people starting off who may need these things but not have them.

Just a suggestion. I was going to do something very similar and had it all planned out however I could not find an area without hills which I feel ruins the idea of a perfectly 'square' area pretty fast.