Bone Mother's Market

[thesourceofsadness]

This guy is not a "n00b" he's a long time player, and a cuck it would seem.

The difference between n00bs and long-time players is: the more you learn - the rare and greater your f*#kups will be.

[VDZ]

Lunarius made a stupid mistake and put a flaw in his market's defense. Snail and boys found an oppurtunity and used it. Everything is just as intended. What's wrong with the game or devs, huh?

I think there's a decent argument to be made that having a flaw in your defense shouldn't immediately lead to complete and near-instant annihilation of everything you've worked on (particularly, as Kaios pointed out, considering obscure tricks like wall extension to cause cascade damage).

On top of that, the intended way to raid is to protect siege weaponry and breach the walls with that. Exploiting technicalities is a possibility in the system in practice, but may not be intended design (and may in fact be a flaw in the game design instead).

Really? Mineholes are here like forever, everyone knows how they work in the terms of siege. Digging holes is a siege mechanics since medieval. It was a mistake to allow building minehole without securing the caves below and nothing more. Why should someone blame the devs for thing that works just as intended?

It's impossible to know all the tricks of the game in the first world, but we're talking about people who is here for years. N00bs will make mistakes, they will be beaten, they will learn. It's just a part of the gameplay.

So what exactly happened here? Did Lunarius simply have an unprotected cave/mine hole inside the market that was accessed from layer 1?

[Vraatjuh]

Really? Mineholes are here like forever, everyone knows how they work in the terms of siege. Digging holes is a siege mechanics since medieval. It was a mistake to allow building minehole without securing the caves below and nothing more. Why should someone blame the devs for thing that works just as intended?

It's impossible to know all the tricks of the game in the first world, but we're talking about people who is here for years. N00bs will make mistakes, they will be beaten, they will learn. It's just a part of the gameplay.

So what exactly happened here? Did Lunarius simply have an unprotected cave/mine hole inside the market that was accessed from layer 1?

There was a designated area within the market that allowed for vandalism (I assume for trading anvils etcetera) for trading purposes. However, they did not claim anything underneath. So Snailbois made a minehole in the market on that specific spot, giving them visitor-free access to the market.

So even though they had visitor buff, they were still allowed to build the minehole because of the vandalism permission within this small designated area.

[Southpaw]

Will those garden pots be returning in the reiteration of the market???

[magisticus]

I think there's a decent argument to be made that having a flaw in your defense shouldn't immediately lead to complete and near-instant annihilation of everything you've worked on (particularly, as Kaios pointed out, considering obscure tricks like wall extension to cause cascade damage).

I thought that cascade damage only happens in walls at the same level of soak, has this been changed ?!?

[Kaios]

There was a designated area within the market that allowed for vandalism (I assume for trading anvils etcetera) for trading purposes. However, they did not claim anything underneath. So Snailbois made a minehole in the market on that specific spot, giving them visitor-free access to the market.

So even though they had visitor buff, they were still allowed to build the minehole because of the vandalism permission within this small designated area.

Yes and the point of creating an area like that is to allow for stockpiles to be placed so it's not unreasonable to make this mistake and it could very easily happen to anyone regardless of how long they have been playing. One would assume given how the mechanics work under visitor that it should not be possible to build mineholes even with the vandalism permission, which was exactly the point I was making about obscure mechanics that are easily missed among a huge list of key and small fixes.

Even if the area were claimed underneath I am fairly certain that it would still be possible to build the minehole, but again I don't know in what way visitor mechanics have been changed that may have fixed issues related to that such as maintaining visitor buff when going up/down as long as there is a claim present in both places. Still, if any portion of the underground is not claimed or it is not entirely walled off then the visitor could still be dropped. There is no good reason why a player not part of a village should be able to build anything like a minehole or siege machinery on someone else's village claim when they are under the visitor buff.

[VDZ]

There was a designated area within the market that allowed for vandalism (I assume for trading anvils etcetera) for trading purposes. However, they did not claim anything underneath. So Snailbois made a minehole in the market on that specific spot, giving them visitor-free access to the market.

So even though they had visitor buff, they were still allowed to build the minehole because of the vandalism permission within this small designated area.

Clearly raiding the way the devs intended it was certainly a flaw, but to me this doesn't feel like the kind of mistake that deserves complete annihilation of everything you've worked on. The "this is why we can't have nice things" aspect also certainly doesn't help.

There was a designated area within the market that allowed for vandalism (I assume for trading anvils etcetera) for trading purposes

What kind of trading requires vandalism? Anvils can be exchanged with just Theft, right? Sounds to me like a flaw in the game design if certain trades cannot be completed unless the traders have permission to, among other things, build mine holes.

I think there's a decent argument to be made that having a flaw in your defense shouldn't immediately lead to complete and near-instant annihilation of everything you've worked on (particularly, as Kaios pointed out, considering obscure tricks like wall extension to cause cascade damage).

I thought that cascade damage only happens in walls at the same level of soak, has this been changed ?!?

Not sure when it was changed, but yes, recently there was a controversial raid in which the walls were breached by extending them off the claim (cornerpost was on the edge of the claim with no tiles claimed beyond it) and then the extension was bashed to cascade into the actual wall. If, like probably most players, you were not aware of this, you clearly deserve to lose everything you've worked for in an instant. Make sure to always claim at least one tile beyond your walls.

[magisticus]

There was a designated area within the market that allowed for vandalism (I assume for trading anvils etcetera) for trading purposes. However, they did not claim anything underneath. So Snailbois made a minehole in the market on that specific spot, giving them visitor-free access to the market.

So even though they had visitor buff, they were still allowed to build the minehole because of the vandalism permission within this small designated area.

Yes and the point of creating an area like that is to allow for stockpiles to be placed so it's not unreasonable to make this mistake and it could very easily happen to anyone regardless of how long they have been playing. One would assume given how the mechanics work under visitor that it should not be possible to build mineholes even with the vandalism permission, which was exactly the point I was making about obscure mechanics that are easily missed among a huge list of key and small fixes.

Even if the area were claimed underneath I am fairly certain that it would still be possible to build the minehole, but again I don't know in what way visitor mechanics have been changed that may have fixed issues related to that such as maintaining visitor buff when going up/down as long as there is a claim present in both places. Still, if any portion of the underground is not claimed or it is not entirely walled off then the visitor could still be dropped. There is no good reason why a player not part of a village should be able to build anything like a minehole or siege machinery on someone else's village claim when they are under the visitor buff.

I dunno, a white vandalism permission should raise some alarm bells... A reasonable step when you do that sort of thing is use a character that isnt a member of the village to thoroughly check the security of the area. This seems a pretty significant oversight, also rather similar to the raid of community fair in w11.

[Vraatjuh]

There was a designated area within the market that allowed for vandalism (I assume for trading anvils etcetera) for trading purposes

What kind of trading requires vandalism? Anvils can be exchanged with just Theft, right? Sounds to me like a flaw in the game design if certain trades cannot be completed unless the traders have permission to, among other things, build mine holes.

Not sure if it was for specifically trading those goods, but it could also be that they missunderstood the way vandalism/theft works? It for sure was meant as a place for trading goods. The whole mechanic is confusing anyway, seeing how taking water on a claim with a barrel requires a different permission than taking water with a waterflask (vandalism vs theft).

[Kaios]

I thought that cascade damage only happens in walls at the same level of soak, has this been changed ?!?

Freshly extended walls will not cascade in to walls with soak, however, apparently all one needs to do to make that happen is allow the extended walls to gain enough soak (about 8 hours?) so that they are still hand bashable but now have enough soak that they cascade in to fully soaked walls.

Also I think palisade walls remain hand bashable for up to 3 days now which is quite a long time, imagine you have had your walls up for 3 days when some random dude comes along, bashes in, and kills you.