A public challenge

Forum for discussing in game politics, village relations and matters of justice.

Re: A public challenge

Postby Halbertz » Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:44 pm

Archiplex wrote:
jordancoles wrote:Anyone outside of Snail's group knows that the factions will stick their nose in it the second they start the siege attempt because OP would post about it here

There are no small sieges between little players in this game because the factions get involved the second they hear about it :roll:


yea actually something like this happened fairly early world, dunno who the factions involved were but my group had some issues with a single russian guy who would go around and kill sprucecaps and force people to move away, and when a few villages got together (again, small villages of like 2-3 players each) and decided to siege, we were met with a pretty significant force from a big faction that the solo was friends with after we began the siege

it was pretty lame and gay and the stalking that happened for a few weeks after was even worse, but i mean w/e guess we should have had more gamers

Yeah. Thing about the game that we have pretty small community. So if you attack random guy there is a change the he knows the guy, who knows the guy who had sex with guy, who knows someone from factions. So this is obvious that a lot of ppl answer the call ("lmao pvp not against same 10 ppl, what a chance").
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Re: A public challenge

Postby pawnchito » Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:27 am

jordancoles wrote:Anyone outside of Snail's group knows that the factions will stick their nose in it the second they start the siege attempt because OP would post about it here

There are no small sieges between little players in this game because the factions get involved the second they hear about it :roll:


I wouldnt post anything that would jeaperdize a bon a fide siege until the whole thing is over. The point is to have a good faith interaction with the folks that find it necessary to constantly post about how lopsided siege is currently.

They would cry fowl and say siege is easy except for interference if someone stepped in anyway. Pretty sure snail et al. understand that btw.
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Re: A public challenge

Postby Apocoreo » Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:13 pm

Archiplex wrote:-snip-


Actually this. Had some friends start a small village and get attacked by a small group of Koreans that had been raiding the region. These dudes were bad, we killed three of them because they redhanded before finishing their pali. Anyway, they apparently got stuck in a conflict with Church of Satan, dropping rams constantly and patrolling CoS's shores. They were some KO's on either side but didn't see any deaths.

Our village friends kept asking us to help out but like, they never actually countersieged the Koreans because they were associated with KoS and someone said they would come to defense in the event of a siege. Not speaking of any factions official policy, but just the rumor was enough for some people to talk like countersieging was impossible.

My point is siding with Cole's point, as well so showing it ain't easy to siege. Catching a village totally inactive is much harder than catching a hermit, and we shouldn't be designing mechanics around hermits.
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Re: A public challenge

Postby Clemins » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:13 am

Apocoreo wrote:
Actually this. Had some friends start a small village and get attacked by a small group of Koreans that had been raiding the region. These dudes were bad, we killed three of them because they redhanded before finishing their pali. Anyway, they apparently got stuck in a conflict with Church of Satan, dropping rams constantly and patrolling CoS's shores. They were some KO's on either side but didn't see any deaths.

Our village friends kept asking us to help out but like, they never actually countersieged the Koreans because they were associated with KoS and someone said they would come to defense in the event of a siege. Not speaking of any factions official policy, but just the rumor was enough for some people to talk like countersieging was impossible.

My point is siding with Cole's point, as well so showing it ain't easy to siege. Catching a village totally inactive is much harder than catching a hermit, and we shouldn't be designing mechanics around hermits.


That's kind of the difficult part about having a game with such a divergent population. If you make sieging any more difficult, no one beyond people who are hyper-determined will ever attempt it. Make it easier, and people who aren't ready to defend themselves will get raided/raided more often. Both well organized villages and hermits play the same game, so it's kind of hard to balance anything on these two completely different playstyles. That being said, the current state of siege is the best balance we've had in my opinion (not saying it's perfect mind you).

But Coles point doesn't address the difficulty of siege mechanics itself, the purpose of this challenge and thread.

To Coles point though, it's not how sieging currently works fundamentally that creates the tendency for factions to get involved, it's all just personal relationships between people in the game and using it to attack/defend. While he is completely right, I can't think of any way to change anything that would make it so there was less interference by 3rd parties. As frustrating as this can be for some, it's kind of always been the nature of the game. After all, Haven is designed in such a way to be played with other people in the same village (or micro managing 4 alts if that's what you want to do).

I was a hermit in world 7,8,9,10, (kind of in 11), 12 with 2 other people, and 13 was my first small village (about 11 people at its peak).

I can say now for sure that the game intends for you to rely on others for things if you want to be competitive. As this is the case and seems to be intentional, it's not broken if people use their contacts for help. Perhaps find some other people to play with, do some talking with your local faction, and you can shift the "people problem" in your direction.
jorb wrote:New players, I would also like to add, should be, and are, particularly easy to target.

https://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44710
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Re: A public challenge

Postby Okocim » Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:09 pm

In my opinion siege is pretty balanced right now.
Based on my experience with siege (2 actual sieges) imo defender has an advantage.
Attacker can choose when the attack is started and obviously if you find a period of inactivity you don't have to siege at all, but even in case your opponent is active it might be huge advantage depending on how quickly he finds out about attack.
For me actual siege starts when defender becomes aware of the attack.
Sieging takes massive effort from an attacker and moderate effort from defender, so the later the defender notices the better.
Let's be real most villages are not single player ones and even in that case a neighbor can warn you, so in most cases it's noticed with plenty of time left.
Building towers and the whole "chess" play is all about buying time, you can't defend against siege with only that unless attacker decide it's no longer worth the effort.
To successfully defend you need to actually beat up the attacker in combat and this is where attacker's advantages end.
Defenders can choose specific time when the fight is going to take place while attacker have to be ready for it for the whole duration of the siege (ours took ~56 and ~38 hours barely had any sleep), after pushing back the attackers they need to hold their ground for around 2h until archery towers destroy the siege machine.

So summarizing
Attackers:
+can chose when to attack
-have to pay material cost of the siege machines
-have to be combat ready for extended periods of time
-loosing a fight will most likely reset all the siege progress so far

Defenders:
-have to log in actively to notice the attack as soon as possible
+can chose exact fight timing, need to be combat ready for the fight and sort time after it.
+can delay and increase siege effort for the attacker with archery towers (which are very cheap)
+winning a fight can end the siege and after loosing can try again

If you can't win a fight against your attacker and the later is determined enough, there is no way for you to defend in a long run, still it'd take alot for me to be determined for another siege, it's pain.

PS. I won't be discussing scavenging of abandoned villages or raiding while owner is not home, but if you want to discuss siege we can talk.
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Re: A public challenge

Postby MadNomad » Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:12 pm

Okocim wrote:a neighbor can warn you


how can a neighbour warn you when you're at work/school/doing other things away from computer? are they somehow able to write messages into your mind from the other side of the world without any means of doing so?

and this would assume that the neighbour wishes to inform you about it, and notices it themselves, which is not guaranteed either, maybe even some number of neighbours would like to use opportunity that someone placed siege equipment, or planned it themselves but someone did it before them
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Re: A public challenge

Postby Okocim » Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:26 pm

MadNomad wrote:
Okocim wrote:a neighbor can warn you


how can a neighbour warn you when you're both at work/school/doing other things away from computer? are they somehow able to write messages into your mind from the other side of the world without any means of doing so?

and this would assume that the neighbour wishes to inform you about it, and notices it themselves, which is not guaranteed either, maybe even some number of neighbours would like to use opportunity that someone placed siege equipment


Let me tell you about an absolute wonder they made years ago, it's called a mobile phone, you can send messages to someone even if they are at work or doing other things away from computer.
People living near by in game doesn't necessarily live in the same time zone as you and even if they do, they don't have to be working at the same time as you, also most ppl don't work 24h a day.

How you live with your neighbors is your business, you can also find yourself an area with no neighbors and this is your choice.
Last edited by Okocim on Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A public challenge

Postby MadNomad » Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:27 pm

as if I gave phone numbers to strangers in game? who does this?

even if someone called you you might have been busy doing other things, such as working at work in order not to lose your job, so getting called in this case wouldn't help either
Last edited by MadNomad on Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A public challenge

Postby Okocim » Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:29 pm

MadNomad wrote:as if I gave phone numbers to strangers in game? lol

Mine is able to run discord, but well, it's also your choice. Don't blame others for it.
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Re: A public challenge

Postby MadNomad » Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:29 pm

Okocim wrote:
MadNomad wrote:as if I gave phone numbers to strangers in game? lol

Mine is able to run discord, but well, it's also your choice. Don't blame others for it.


so you're letting everyone on discord know the location of your village so they can warn you?

are you also constantly watching it? might as well constantly be chained to computer!
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