Guilds vs free trade?

[Vetarnian]

Rant

I'm getting a weird vibe from this. And frankly, I don't like it.

[Phazorx]

They are not working for traders because instead of setting up trades that are for sure and as a result of which you get what you want, one needs to periodically check/update stock at their stands just to get coins, which then need to be converted into what you want

It may not be as nice as directly converting what you have into what you want, but it still beats nothing. Often, you don't have anything that the guy you want to trade with wants. Coins as universally accepted goods are there to bridge the gap, not to replace barter completely.

Current HnH coins aren't a good medium because they are not universally accepted (for example I do not accept them since I do not have need for them). There is no institution that enforce value for them, hence they are only as good as metal in them which makes them equivalent to 1/100 of a bar. And there is no way to exchange what you have (i.e. anything which is not coins) into coins aside of building your own stand, which is a long way to go for getting what you want if you ask me (minting bars you have into coins at finery forge is even longer way and in reality possible only for some miner hermits or established settlements)

and having stands where you are is often pointless since no one else is there, while having them where everyone else is (such as RoB) also implies frequent travel, which also can be completely pointless (no one bought anything, nothing to restock).

Not really. You just need an alt hearth at your stall for checking the state of your store. As an added bonus, it lights up the place, which somewhat improves business at night. And you want an alt claim on your stalls anyway.

The alt trader is an added external convenience, but i am not considering Out-of-character exploits usually, a game mechanics that forces you to have more than one account to be useful is poorly designed one. That being said, it is another time investment player have to make and it only deals with checking part, you still need to update stocks obviously.

They are not working for buyers either because, while for single item purchases (which i where term vending comes from) they are great, these who want these items (newbie players) do not possess what is to give in return (coins).

The buyers just need to build their own stands. If they have anything that other people need, they can get coins for it. There's enough customers for them, trust me. I personally buy at stalls roughly 80% of the food I eat.

That approach is not even feasible for newbie players, and for established ones - unless it is a single item (or very few), you have the coins and you know where it is what you need - general barter trade is still way more convenient and will probably take less time if you bother to jump onto IRC or bug any of your known sources

[Potjeh]

Have you even tried using the stands? Because what you're saying is completely contrary to my experience.

[Phazorx]

Have you even tried using the stands? Because what you're saying is completely contrary to my experience.

I'm actually trying to analyze it from different perspective. Personally i can use stands but i choose not to because i don't feel like investing time into looking for what i need.
Aside of that, I can see how it can be beneficial for players who have the finery forge and who are miners, but if you are not one of them - it means before you can get any use of it, you have to develop your personal economy to level of having capable stand, goods to sell and means to deliver them... all that only to be able to use stands, that is hefty playtime investment... granted you want to do that anyway, but think about a newbie character who sees all these candies at stands and have nothing to buy them with.

[jorb]

Rant

I'm getting a weird vibe from this. And frankly, I don't like it.

I wouldn't be too worried. I'm a relatively kind soul deep down.

[Potjeh]

But that's a perfect niche for another trader. I don't mine, but I have built myself a finery forge. I'm using it to melt coins and sell them as bars of tin, iron and bronze, which can be frequently found on my stand. I'm not selling copper because I figure there's not that much demand for copper bars, but I just might give it a try.

And newbies can build their own stands just fine. The material costs are more than reasonable.

[Fetdaniel]

Rant

I'm getting a weird vibe from this. And frankly, I don't like it.

I wouldn't be too worried. I'm a relatively kind soul deep down.

First of all I am not vetarnian, but I guess you knew that jorb. Second of all I wouldn't say I get a bad vibe, or dislike your opinions, since they are opinions, I respect them since you seem like a respectable person. (people do prove me wrong sometimes though. But I don't like to judge people unless I have reason to.)

Secondly I have debated and are somewhat familiar with the opinions that Ayn Rand stand for, the objectist way of thought.
I find it intruiging in one sense, but I see it more as a religion that obviously would hate the relativistic postmodernist since it critiques modernism and consequently the enlightment and reason of mankind. If Jorb is interested We could have a chat on another thread, since it goes outside of this threads purpose.

What I am saying now goes not just to Jorb but to everyone answering or quoting me again. It seems like I need to make things extra crispy clear.
Statement: I never said I was communist or liked one. I have never said anything except nuansed an idea that I shared with you in each case, and I have NEVER promised anything I haven't followed up, I have and only have started discussions since it pleases me and my gaming experience. Furthermore I respect peoples opinions. I love problems, they are there for me to solve, not troll about, nor sharing some egotastic god-knows-what about why I am better or relying on postcount for respect.

If anyone have a problem with this come stab me in a PM. And I'll verbal yo' a**
Stick to thread. I think guilds have a purpose, where there is organisation, there is a garden of ideas. Harvest and reap the rewards.

That said. I still love you backstabbing bastards who I have yet to meet, and all you good people who seem to be everywhere.

[Fetdaniel]

There seems to be a lot of "wordiness" in these posts that make me assume that there will be little to no ACTUAL EFFORT put towards making any of this happen.

Here's my ten cents.


1 - War torn paranoia is not anti-guild, it's pro guild. People don't want to be known as wealthy, so by trading via an established faction they can maximize their anonymity.

2 - All you need to do is get a few people together to get round-the-clock online coverage, pool your resources and start making bulk trades.
Have some scouts wander around IN GAME and talk to people WHILE THEY ARE PLAYING and you will find a lot more buyers and sellers than you could find on IRC.
Don't publish those buyers and sellers, just buy from them and sell to them and use your access to that market as a competitive advantage. If you can trade more volume, you can crowd others out of the market by lowering your margins.

3 - Be aware that this will take TONS of effort, and I don't just mean words on a forum or IRC, I mean ground pounding, book working, door knocking AND words on a forum/irc.

These points are good, but I personally was never thinking that there would be a Guild Hoard(tm) and bulkselling of some kind of community pool. I was just thinking of a guild of miners who could agree that selling cast iron for so and so much phirozkis would gain them all. You don't even need to rule all supply to have effect, since demand is currently higher than supply, you can still change the curve of the graph by having alot of miners agreeing on your price setting, thats what guilds are for in my thought, and is quite effective since its all nice wordies on a forum, and massive reward.
Likewise farmers could say, hey it takes a miner so and so many minutes to make a bar of iron, we will only sell our products on a ratio towards iron that takes equal or less time for us to make. if they got the quality goods, no china newb can break it. =)

[theTrav]

These points are good, but I personally was never thinking that there would be a Guild Hoard(tm) and bulkselling of some kind of community pool. I was just thinking of a guild of miners who could agree that selling cast iron for so and so much phirozkis would gain them all.

In which case my points all still apply, you're simply reducing your stock and you're being overly restrictive on what you accept in exchange...

Main point I wanted to get across is that if you want it to happen you need to pound the ground (with your feet) and talk to the miners and their customers directly to get this set up.

Posting a thread out of no-where on the forum saying "hey guys wouldn't it be neat if we unionized" is fine for a bit of intellectual debate, but it's not going to result in anything actually happening.

[theTrav]

Have you even tried using the stands? Because what you're saying is completely contrary to my experience.

I'm actually trying to analyze it from different perspective. Personally i can use stands but i choose not to because i don't feel like investing time into looking for what i need.

LOL! Stands are crap, I know because I've never used them!

nice perspective