Guilds vs free trade?

[Fetdaniel]

In all cases I interpret this game as game of natural dynamics, where trade (and politics) are made by the users and not reinforced by the makers.

This discussion is only regarding the state of trade in Haven & Hearth.

In this natural state we could view the world from three perspectives, or visions. As we cannot decide for everyone we can ourselves choose what kind we work for.

First we can see the market as free, each to his own, haggling is done Chakravanti style, where each person tries to maximize his gain from trade, as a consequence traders with good connections are viable and will be able to make good deals, but only if they can somehow outdo the regular communications trough IRC and similar.

Secondly on the other end trade is institutionalized by trade guilds, perhaps reinforced by villages or even more likely trough several villages in intervillage unions that essentially decide the standard trade ratio for people to follow. This would strengthen those professions that spend alot of time for little tradevalue, eg farmers? In practice this only means writing guidelines with a group's specific interests in thought.

The third perspective or practice, I find somewhere in the middle of the two, the current state of haven and hearth's market, which is that some trades are standardized, and people feel they should follow certain ratios in fear that people might take offense for suggesting something else (first perspective), and we see no actual miners or farmers guild that actually look up the time something takes to try to make trading fair and rewarding. Instead a headless idea of somethings work, metal for instance, forces people to try other ways of getting it, like getting their own mine. This selfsufficency drive is really cute and fun, but not at all efficient for the community.

Well I don't say I know that some kind of forum based guild would solve anything since i don't know if key groups of people would care? Its up to the individual, if perhaps farmers have something to gain by making their time invested in making linen or other food more expensive by making favourable standards, then it must be every farmer, each in his/her own who must follow such guild standard ratios.

On the other hand if everybody took the time and effort to think trough a deal and try to trade like the first view, I could also imagine that this could fix the economy for the better.

The middle way is actually the worst in this scenario, for once.. In my view at least.

Im in favor for community based guilds just because it will help new people find a good value for things, which arbitrarly could be decided in coins. Value = time spent. Since trading also takes time, standards makes the economy more efficient. Innovations in organisation, communication, practise or knowledge is the way towards efficiency.

To critisize myself I find that a previous investment, like a mine can't easily be valued, and could be valued using the first perspective, and the actual items for trade decided trough opposing guilds. But that's why we need a discussion.

Any ideas? Suggestions? Iniatives? Revolutions? Beer?

I love all you evil backstabbers that i've never met and all you good people who seem to be everywhere.

[nutsnmango]

The current Wartorn state in which H&H finds itself prevents mutliple villages from unionizing and changing the trade paradigm. As long as certain factions refuse to see H&H's entertainment value as nothing more than its potential for war, trade will remain disorganized and dependent on individual traders "chakravanti style" although the vending stalls have done something to turn copper into a real currency, I think unions will never happen in this paranoid environment. people simply don't unite because they farm, but because they belong to such and such village and hate this other village on the other side of the map. At least this is the case with the more powerful players and I find the weaker players, for the most part, to be even more disorganized.

[Fetdaniel]

The current Wartorn state in which H&H finds itself prevents mutliple villages from unionizing and changing the trade paradigm. As long as certain factions refuse to see H&H's entertainment value as nothing more than its potential for war, trade will remain disorganized and dependent on individual traders "chakravanti style" although the vending stalls have done something to turn copper into a real currency, I think unions will never happen in this paranoid environment. people simply don't unite because they farm, but because they belong to such and such village and hate this other village on the other side of the map. At least this is the case with the more powerful players and I find the weaker players, for the most part, to be even more disorganized.

Well if enough people decide to change the value for things in actual trading then the values would change since there is a need to trade farmstuff for metal stuff in short. And not everybody are bound to isolated villages.

[Potjeh]

I firmly believe in free market's ability to balance the prices correctly. However, a huge problem is lack of market transparency, which leads to huge price fluctuations. Vendor stalls make the market a lot more transparent, and if only more people would use them (as in run them) prices for majority of products would stabilize at fair values.

[Leonard]

The middle way sounds decent, but there has to be a benefit for all (yes, the traders too) to take rules and guidelines into account. In return, people who follow the principles should be listed/marked/whatever, so we can tell the difference of free-for-all traders and guild traders. Other than that, Potjeh is right, the prices will stabilize itself. I can see guilds as very big traders with fixed prices tough.

[Fetdaniel]

I firmly believe in free market's ability to balance the prices correctly. However, a huge problem is lack of market transparency, which leads to huge price fluctuations. Vendor stalls make the market a lot more transparent, and if only more people would use them (as in run them) prices for majority of products would stabilize at fair values.

Well that is true, and in essense guilds are not restricting free trade, but wouldn't transparency increase if we had guilds that wrote trade standards for a groups interests or a sense of fair trade instead of arbitrarly decided ratios?

Economic theory assumes perfect communications and rational motives. And I see that if establishing guilds makes a channel for communications then it improves the economics of free trade, doesn't it? And that is what you mean by transparency also, isn't it?

Also i believe that fairness is a subjective value, not a natural occuring state. Fairness to me is a trade where everybody benefits in a good way, and iron plows or a scythe is currently not going to make my farm any more efficient in enough time if I make a rational choice. And I personally believe that free markets stabilises around current power distributions, so any consolidation of power and intiative on either side will change the market value. That's why guilds comes into place, they are natural in a natural economy.

[Fetdaniel]

The middle way sounds decent, but there has to be a benefit for all (yes, the traders too) to take rules and guidelines into account. In return, people who follow the principles should be listed/marked/whatever, so we can tell the difference of free-for-all traders and guild traders. Other than that, Potjeh is right, the prices will stabilize itself. I can see guilds as very big traders with fixed prices tough.

I agree with your last point, thats the way I would see a guild in practice right now. I am open for discussion though.
Even though they wouldn't be a hoarding actual trader but rather a medium that tries to give their collective work a fair value. Thats why it could work with a forum based guild.

[Leonard]

Yea, but as I statet, there should be a benefit for being (in) a guild. otherwise people would ask themslves:"Why should I?" I dont't really have thought about it yet, I admit.

[jorb]

I agree with Potjeh, and think that communism is a scourge on the world that should be nuked from orbit, since its the only way to really ever be sure.

[Fetdaniel]

I agree with Potjeh, and think that communism is a scourge on the world that should be nuked from orbit, since its the only way to really ever be sure.

Some people likes to look at the economic solution like market/planned economy as seperate to any ideas about equality and fraternity. Which i must add is more relevant in this post modern world, but i digress..

Anyway nobody has said anything about communism, but i saw a witch dressed up all in red running left an hour ago, go burn!

=)