The U.S. Goverment

[pyrale]

Are you seriously asking me for anecdotal evidence because you are too lazy to look up an economic concept that is new to you and figure out how it applies to the situation and come back with something coherent?

I don't need your help or anyone else's to understand an economic concept. I'm simply pointing out the fact that a bunch of countries had (and for some, still have) equal or better capital than sweden and are still behind now on the criteria I talked about. Reading comprehension 101 before you start bullshiting people next time.

Somalia it is a shitty country with warlords (mini-governments) pirates and Islamic militias (claiming to be governments), if you were intellectually honest you wouldn't bring it up.

Umm yeah my point is that countries with reduced to no government tends to be shitty countries with warlords and militias. I tried to point out the fact that most libertarians didn't want a reduced government, but a government enforcing their right to exploit their population.

[ArvinJA]

Are you seriously asking me for anecdotal evidence because you are too lazy to look up an economic concept that is new to you and figure out how it applies to the situation and come back with something coherent?

I don't need your help or anyone else's to understand an economic concept. I'm simply pointing out the fact that a bunch of countries had (and for some, still have) equal or better capital than sweden and are still behind now on the criteria I talked about. Reading comprehension 101 before you start bullshiting people next time.

Somalia it is a shitty country with warlords (mini-governments) pirates and Islamic militias (claiming to be governments), if you were intellectually honest you wouldn't bring it up.

Umm yeah my point is that countries with reduced to no government tends to be shitty countries with warlords and militias. I tried to point out the fact that most libertarians didn't want a reduced government, but a government enforcing their right to exploit their population.

Sweden accumulated wealth during the 19th century, and didn't participate in WW1 nor WW2, during the first half of the 20th century Sweden had capital, low taxes and a law system that was easy to comprehend. This allowed for many innovations and big companies to spring up and grow. As for your Somalia argument, you're still just giving it a libertarian label, while it truly is a failed state.

EDIT: During the 70s government expanded, but thankfully less so after Palme was shot in '86 (whoever killed him is a fucking hero). After the turbulence in the early 90s government started to shrink in many ways, and the unsustainable pension system was reformed, with only the extreme left opposing the reform. In the 00s the right has ruled and we have privatized the pharmacies which has been a huge success according to most Swedes.

[jorb]

jorb, if you were moving to america tomorrow and you had to have a political party, which one would you join

The British Loyalist party? I wouldn't join a political party even if I had to, but I might go vote for Ron Paul.

Let me emphasize that I love America. I even used to believe that her wars were just and fought for good reasons. I was one of very few Swedes who actually liked George W. Bush. I can see the errors of my ways now, but in my defense they were never the ones people told me that they were. In fact I believed in the whole thing. Democracies do not declare war on each other, democracies have strong and good institutions that allow for peaceful transitions of power. We can bring about eternal peace by forcing countries to adopt western style democracy. The biggest problem in the world is that country X, Y or Z does not tow the democratic line. We can change it all if we get people to vote for some other stooge. Monarchy is strange and weird. Yadiyadi.

Abandoning democracy as a political ideal was one of the hardest intellectual battles I have ever fought with myself. I was raised in a tradition where, if you will, the pleasant sides of democracy and its ideals where constantly fed to me. In school, at home, by everyone. Abandoning it felt like heresy, and it was. I did not arrive at where I am now for light and transient reasons.

You are such a fucking idiot.

Potjeh is no idiot. He is both intelligent and well read. From his perspective I am a spoiled idiot who isn't being grateful for all the good things I have -- peace, relative prosperity, a life in a stable society -- and I understand that perspective, I have a great deal to be grateful for. He is wrong on the issue here, but I do not expect familiarity with Austrian economics from everyone I meet. And while I agree with the general assessment of Olof Palme's political contributions, assassination is a cowardly act of murder that accomplishes nothing except but to tear on the bonds of trust that make up the social web of the civil society. Nothing to be applauded.

Well I'd say that Sweden is a lot better place to live than USA, which is closer to your political ideals.

The United States of America is a bankrupt imperial welfare state sucking the last stolen drops out of capital accumulated over centuries by the productivity of its citizens. It engages in exhausting and never-ending warfare across the entire globe, and maintains a military presence ostensibly "protecting american interests" in some half of the countries on the planet. Like Rome before it it is debasing its currency and spending the profits of this massive counterfeiting scheme on supporting -- in the manner of a cargo cult -- the drying husks of its once productive capital ships of industry -- Ford, GM, etc, effectively nationalizing in swathes its banking institutions and its corporations. Electing empty-rhetoric demagogues masquerading a saviors, with the skeleton of socialism rattling loudly behind the thin veneer of republicanism. Completely under the sway of its military-industrial complex, and its pluto-/kleptocratic corporate/big business/big government power conglomerates. It is as far removed from my political ideals as one can get.

I love America, and her tradition, which is why it pains me to no end to see what she has become. My consolation is that all the actual Americans I meet are still by and large the fantastic, freedom loving, happy-go-lucky idiots that I expect them to be.

Prosperity comes from hard work, from saving and from tending to ones fields. It cannot be established by political edict, and the belief that it can is the most dangerous idea that anyone could ever let grow in the garden of their mind.

Take it away, Merle!

[WarpedWiseMan]

Every American can thank political correctness and lawyers for the recent collapse of our nation. Electing a money spending know nothing like Obama didn't help.

Too many laws, too many regulations, too much bureaucratic bullshit and the forsaking of our power infrastructure including oil refineries, nuclear power and coal have lead to a dependence on fucked up tyrannies like Iran, Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. The trade deficits with Japan and China allowed by not reciprocating those countries one sided trade laws and allowing them to import without restriction has bankrupted us.

However, my country's ideals, strengths and resolve are stronger, healthier and more accepting of every other race, creed and religion on the planet. That makes us vastly superior to Sweden, Europe, China and any other place you can name on Earth. And eventually, after we kill all the politicians, my country will still be the wealthiest, most independently free and most powerful nation-state to have ever existed.

[jorb]

"To make us love our country," says Burke, "our country ought to be lovely." Our country is still lovely in myriad ways, from its natural splendors to the spontaneous good manners of its citizens in their little daily transactions. But its ugliers features--violence and crassness--have been worsened by a generation of misconceived social policies and bogus civil liberties. Liberalism's promise of a "Great Society" has not been kept; it has become a sour joke.

America is unique, but we should not make too much of its uniqueness. In the long run we love our country for the same reasons any man loves his country--not for things that can be bragged about, but for things that can hardly be communicated, and are understood by outsiders mostly by analogy with their own patriotic affections. You communicate your love for your mother not by expatiating on your mother's singular virtues, still less by calling her the Great Mother, but simply by using the word "mother." Every man born of woman will understand.

http://www.wildwestcycle.com/f_pensees.htm

[EmperorNuke]

Obviously the Republicans are right. Though really America needs some immediate and major cuts. Maybe 900B/year for the next 3 years?

[Monkeytofu]

Hilarious birthright nationalism and American historical revisionism going on in this thread.

Your country isn't unique because you have people who seek freedom, are nice, live next to some nice looking trees, or you were born there. I really doubt if you choose any country in the world, ask a native of it if he doesn't want to be free he'll say "No, I rather like being oppressed by my government, and I really love that everyone here has no respect overall."

But its ugliers features--violence and crassness--have been worsened by a generation of misconceived social policies and bogus civil liberties. Liberalism's promise of a "Great Society" has not been kept; it has become a sour joke.

America has always done things that are morally wrong like replacing democratic governments with dictators, oppressing natives, slavery, busting up unions, etc. The list goes on.

I don't doubt the fact that America was unique in starting one of the first large scale democracies, but claiming it was (and is) some amazing, object that was worthy of fanatical patriotism and now it's somehow completely different is just being selective with your history.

That doesn't mean America hasn't done good things, in my opinion America has done good and continues to try and improve it's democratic system. It's our jobs as informed citizens to inform the uninformed and make real changes in our government rather then sitting in our arm chair's looking at governments and history through rose tinted glasses.

[Tonkyhonk]

Japan was stagnating before as a result of inflationism, if "beocming more like Sweden" means stopping that, then by all means, that is a wise and very libertarian choice.

im afraid that youve missed my point. (and Japan's stagnation isnt a result of inflationism, not that simple.)

seeing it being wasted away by politicians drunk with power who did not lift a finger for its creation...

Sweden hasn't really done that well since the 70s, when incidentally government started expanding like there was no tomorrow (good thing that someone shot the Prime Minister Olof Palme so pragmatic social democrats could undo some of the economic evils).

if the current swedish systems are so abusable by power-hungry corrupt politicians in Sweden with accumulated capital, then adopting them could do even bigger damages to our country with the huge debts. the government here is craving for a "democratic solution" to milk, in other words, to raise taxes, which is to convince the majority to say yes to swedish lvl taxation by showing how Sweden has been successful. pretty ironic after reading what you guys wrote above.


when i studied in the states, which is quite a long while ago, i took the US history class. and i was brainwashed to believe how "just" it was to use nuclear weapons to end WW2.
Chinese schools brainwash students how "just" it is to bash Japan and to milk from Japan for compensation which is used for their military expenditures, Korean schools brainwash students how Japan has invaded their territory island and claim its ownership (while Japan teaches otherwise). Japanese school too brainwash students how some of the previous acts in/before WW2 had improved the situation of Asia on the whole, to face Western powers equally. (well, i should add that many teachers tend to avoid doing that lately and skip the textbook lines that say such stuff.) Israeli school brainwash students too, but ill skip that here to avoid unwanted flames since i have not experienced the fear of being attacked by neighbor countries yet.
i actually have heard German history classes are the most modest and always teach students the every fact in detail to learn how evil they were, though i have never witnessed or heard in person.

but anyways, democracy's weakest point is, imo, that the majority wins always. and the majority can often be manipulated by a very small number of smart-ass. (yes, of course majority winning is fair to most people, because it will satisfy more people and there will be no way to satisfy every single person anyways.)

i said "brainwashing" above, but it doesnt have to be technical brainwashing. you spend time with the majority of one opposed opinion for long enough and you do start doubting what you have believed. that is just human nature and you cant deny that.

morals change, depending on the surrounding environment and the people around you, or some events you faced.
what the majority believe to be "justice" may be "evil" in the next century and vice versa.

i remember some american musicians telling me how america fucked up New Orleans by having carried out the prohibition in the states back in 1930s. many experts believed and convinced prohibiting any kinds of alcohol meant getting rid of evils and people applauded the movement and the decision, each state followed it. and the result was rather creating more evils, and took them more than a decade to withdraw from this particular law.

at present, we are flooded with information and it is getting harder and harder to pick the right choice.
people are born to be lazy, we think and work hard to be lazy.
when we are provided with an easy and good looking choice on a silver platter, out of all the available inaccurate junks from internet, the majority would not refuse to take it.
that is when democracy can be the most dangerous.

p.s.
i know im naive writing this, maybe in an armed chair with rose tinted glasses.
(edited a bit for grammar)

[pyrale]

Honestly, what I hate with libertarians (and that's why I bashed you a bit Jorb) is that they have no result to show. When you ask them to show what their plans effectively did, metrics of their ideology's effectiveness, you get nothing. When you point out examples of their fails, you get answers like "this was not totally libertarian", "this was a failed attempt", etc. Much like talking with communists, dare I say.
On the other hand, social democracies as we can see in northern countries do pretty well, score very high in every human development measures, resisted the economic crisis rather well etc. You can arguably say that they had something to work with, but comparing them to other countries with the same potential tends to show that this model does give results. This also applies to finland which was not nearly as strong economically speaking, by the way.

So yeah, I'm not advocating public services everywhere, but fact is they have proved that they could do just as well as private service (if you take just one example, the two lowest price energy service providers in europe - one is public and the other one is private. The one that is public provided much money to the government, and cost nothing).
However, I tend to think that public service (or atleast strong govt regulation) is mandatory in some services that are the base to healthy economy : education, energy, transports, social care, communications networks. I think it's easy enough to understand why maintaining quality in those services is mandatory to ensure productivity and reliability to the free market.

But really, please show proofs&examples of what you talk.

[Jackard]

Every American can thank political correctness and lawyers for the recent collapse of our nation. Electing a money spending know nothing like Obama didn't help.

McCain didn't really look any better. Apparently the guy didn't even know how to use a computer.