The U.S. Goverment

[novaalpha]

This thread is the epitome of tldr.

[sabinati]

Every American can thank political correctness and lawyers for the recent collapse of our nation. Electing a money spending know nothing like Obama didn't help.

McCain didn't really look any better. Apparently the guy didn't even know how to use a computer.

that's why i voted for bob barr

[pyrale]

Taiwan has only been liberalized in the 85's, and has known large growth during it's Us-aided dictatorship time (much like china nowadays). So yeah, denying swedish politicians success because they benefited from the post-war economic boom, and pushing as an example a sponsored country which was for half of the post-war era under a dictatorship controling large parts of its economy doesn't sound very serious.

[WarpedWiseMan]

Every American can thank political correctness and lawyers for the recent collapse of our nation. Electing a money spending know nothing like Obama didn't help.

McCain didn't really look any better. Apparently the guy didn't even know how to use a computer.

No doubt, and Armok forbid we ever end up with Sarah Palin one heartbeat from the Oval office. No, this past election the two options we had were like choosing between having your ass sodomized with a baseball bat and having your ass sodomized with a baseball bat on fire. America chose presidential nominees like contestants from the Biggest Loser.

Just an FYI: I wrote in vote for Mickey Mouse. Just like I did when Bob Dole ran against Bill Clinton in '96. Old white guy or liberal? What's worse? Groan.

I too dislike Libertarian ideas on the principle of yes, they all sound great, in theory, but so does Communism. Libertarians have no answers other than null. On paper everything about it is tits, but if you ever developed an actual society and infrastructure around the basic tenants, everything would be on fire, broken or financially unsustainable. Or more likely all three.

Tangent: And I'll go on record saying that George W gets an unfair revisionist hate from the masses. The man was dealing with cooked book economics from eight years of Clinton, a decimated CIA from Clinton, a sluggish economy due to all the misappropriations from Clinton, 9/11 his 1st year in office caused because Clinton was a pussy and didn't take Bin Laden when he was offered to us 3 times, someone tried to assassinate his father (and I don't care if you are the President of the United States or the Dali Lama, that shit is going to piss you off), Jihad/Terrorism and the worst attack on American soil ever perpetrated by non-Americans, and a stagnate economy due to two wars (that quite honestly had to be fought eventually and I'm glad we are killing them in their homelands rather than fighting in ours). People saying there was no connection between WMDs, Al Queda and Iraq are lying to themselves for political reasons and they know it. Nukes are not the only weapons we were afraid of having unleashed, and there was enough financial connection between certain Northern Iraq training camps and Hussein to convict in a court of law.

Criticize the man all you want but:

A) America never got attacked again during W's reign (Nobody will ever hear about or from people who attempted acts of terrorism after 9/11 but during this new administration we've had several very real, very close calls that I'll be happy to link stories to if requested)

B) Al Queda's operations in America were severely hampered forcing them to attack Spain and Indonesia instead of US interests

C) the Patriot Act saved more American lives than anyone of us will ever know

D) His tax cuts did more for the economy than Obama's 780+ billion Stimulus package ever will.

[Potjeh]

There is more to life than GDP. Sure, you could have a huge economic boom in the short term if you cut down all the forests, pulled all the fish out of the sea and stopped bothering with pollution reduction, but I don't think it's worth it. And deregulation is all about allowing business to engage in this kind of behaviour, which they would happily do because your average CEO doesn't give a fuck about future generations.

[jorb]

It is somewhat ironic that for all of the Libertarians' love of the free market, they have a rather poor understanding of how it works, their philosophy is based on an idealized "free market" rather than on any real market that has ever existed.

Yes. Let us blank out completely that the entire 19th century was a libertarian utopia, with predictable, associated and triumphant economic, social and scientific progress.

Low taxes.
Gold standard.
Freedom of trade.
The state generally restricted itself to defense, courts and police. Enforcement of contracts, rule of law, protection of life and property.

I would love to add Monarchy here.

Social democrats on the other hand have actually studied the free market economy using science.

What science would that be? Keynsianism?

I would love to hear a social democratic explanation of interest, capital accumulation, the phenomenon of exchange, business cycles and other economic basics. Sadly there isn't one.

[Potjeh]

And the 19th century growth in Europe had nothing to do with exploitation of the colonies?

[Tonkyhonk]

If you want to see the success of free market policies you can look at Taiwan and compare them to their neighbors. Their economic success has come through free trade. I don't wish to provide anecdotal evidence though, so I hope you will investigate my Taiwan claim further on your own, and hopefully you will come to the same conclusions as I have, or else we could discuss it further.

Taiwan has got the most complicated political state and economical environment for a while...you can never call this a good example of prosperity from free market policies.

ofc its important to teach that part of our history and tell the kids what fucked up shit happend there, but I hate that they ignore other parts of histroy and shorten the complex history of WW2 to "nazis are bad, mmmmkay".

Im a huge history nerd and it always hurted me to see history classes dumbed down to the extreme....

thanks, noted.
sounds just like another brainwashing in a way, he he, and i see what you mean.

[burgingham]

And the 19th century growth in Europe had nothing to do with exploitation of the colonies?

There was no poverty or hunger among the lower classes either, nono.

[pyrale]

And the 19th century growth in Europe had nothing to do with exploitation of the colonies?

yes and no. For empires like France or England, obviously. For Germany not so much (and it's one of the reasons for the strong contributions from german scientists to substitution products).

Yes. Let us blank out completely that the entire 19th century was a libertarian utopia, with predictable, associated and triumphant economic, social and scientific progress.

You mean, back when most countries used their police/armies to break strikes ? Back when one's fate was 99% determined by parent's wealth ? You mean that time which created communism as a reaction, with its violent revolutions and all its trouble ? yeah, that was such a briliant era.