No permadeath - more action

[burgingham]

Then make it 0%. I thought you specialize in permadeath anyway and forum drama probably would increase as well.

[jorb]

[Jackard]

I think there are better ways to argue your point than to argue over some supposed actual meaning of the word reincarnation as it relates to the concept of learning points.

tbh what H&H has doesn't really mesh with the traditional concept of permadeath or reincarnation

didn't sound as though people liked the trad/change slider when you mentioned your dissatisfaction with the current beliefs

I would just abolish the tradition/change slider.

I've been pondering an intelligible and concise way to bring my thoughts to the table but I think Potjeh says it best. It is, at best, a system that creates a day long period where players don't receive full lp after they die. At worst, it's a 4-5 day period where players sit afk before they can go on a raid. While it is an idea to play with, its current implementation produces no constructive, meaningful, or fun game-play. If anything, it just acts as a universal obstacle to getting to what and where players want to be without them gaining any experience or glory for it.

The Trad/change slider has always been a terrible issue, there is not a SINGLE thing about it that works.
Every other slider is a choice, and most people never change them once they decide on what side (Nature VS Industry is the best for this)
Nobody plays as full trad, it only exists as something to AFK towards for PvP. Everything in the game is balanced around full change, could you imagine playing the game with 33% LP gain? It takes 12x as long to unlock any skill as full trad.

[jorb]

I think there are better ways to argue your point than to argue over some supposed actual meaning of the word reincarnation as it relates to the concept of learning points.

what you have doesn't really completely fit with the traditional concept of permadeath or reincarnation

I'm not sure what tradition you are referring to. If I were to give an off-hand definition of reincarnation I'd say "the diminished soul of a deceased person takes up residence in a new mortal coil". I could go on to talk about the traditional indo-european belief in eternal return and the associated symbolism (Ouroboros, Ragnarök and the following rebirth of the world), but I'm not sure its really relevant to the discussion. The problem I have with arbitrary reassignment of skill values is that I feel that it detracts from the permanence of your decisions with regards to your character.

You could argue that alts become the alternative, and you would have a point.

didn't sound as though anyone was truly satisfied with trad/change slider after you brought it up viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17497

No one is. It sucks, and that is common knowledge.

The original design was actually that the sliders would be accompanied by a different set of "instance beliefs". I.e. particular beliefs about very particular things that your character could hold that would in various ways affect his interactions with the world. For example "Foxes are Foul". The belief would give you a bonus when fighting foxes, but in return you couldn't eat fox meat. The primary function of the sliders under that regiment would be to determine which beliefs were available to you.

The general problem I have with HnH as it stands is that it feels too mechanistic. The character is just a set of numbers about which you feel not much in particular. What I would like to see is more intelligent and meaningful ways to build characters, ways which would also make them more personalized.

The beauty of character classes in for example World of Warcraft is that they provide replayability. Haven has very little of that. I don't like character classes per se, but I like replayability. I don't think that every replay should be the same. The game should be able to provide more varied character development, and more varied ways of interacting with the environment.

One of the original concepts that I thought a lot about when we were first starting out was the doors of perception. I wanted the game to look and feel different depending on who you were. Wyrd was conceived in that spirit.

I have an image fixed in my head of building a game wherein you walk through a tall, green forest and somewhere off in the distance see a troll (not an internet troll, but a real one). You look at each other, and then you each go separate ways. Nothing except the sublime transpired. If that could be turned into gameplay, I would be very happy.

The part of Lovecraft's writings that I always loved the most, and which is always in popular discussion overlooked for the Chtulhu Mythos, is the Dream Cycle.

When Randolph Carter was thirty he lost the key of the gate of dreams. Prior to that time he had made up for the prosiness of life by nightly excursions to strange and ancient cities beyond space, and lovely, unbelievable garden lands across ethereal seas; but as middle age hardened upon him he felt these liberties slipping away little by little, until at last he was cut off altogether. No more could his galleys sail up the river Oukranos past the gilded spires of Thran, or his elephant caravans tramp through perfumed jungles in Kled, where forgotten palaces with veined ivory columns sleep lovely and unbroken under the moon.

[...]

I shall ask him when I see him, for I expect to meet him shortly in a certain dream-city we both used to haunt. It is rumoured in Ulthar, beyond the river Skai, that a new king reigns on the opal throne in Ilek-Vad, that fabulous town of turrets atop the hollow cliffs of glass overlooking the twilight sea wherein the bearded and finny Gnorri build their singular labyrinths, and I believe I know how to interpret this rumour. Certainly, I look forward impatiently to the sight of that great silver key, for in its cryptical arabesques there may stand symbolised all the aims and mysteries of a blindly impersonal cosmos.

The thing I want to avoid is to have all of that feel like pure randomness. No meaning is possible where there is no clear sense of cause and effect.

Fundamentally I just want to feel as if I fell through the wardrobe and ended up in magic land. Curiosities are awesome because they allow the world to hold secrets.

Ramblings. Make what you will of them.

[Jackard]

I'm not sure what tradition you are referring to. If I were to give an off-hand definition of reincarnation I'd say "the diminished soul of a deceased person takes up residence in a new mortal coil". I could go on to talk about the traditional indo-european belief in eternal return and the associated symbolism (Ouroboros, Ragnarök and the following rebirth of the world), but I'm not sure its really relevant to the discussion. The problem I have with arbitrary reassignment of skill values is that I feel that it detracts from the permanence of your decisions with regards to your character. You could argue that alts become the alternative, and you would have a point.

But such a reassignment (if you were allowed to inherit anything at all beyond your claim/hearthfire/kinlist, and I'm not saying you should be) wouldn't alter the attributes of your ancestor, which could become more significant if that aspect of the game was developed further.

[Slayerr555]

Okay, Nooooow we're talkin'! Permadeath is AMAZING. We just need to get rid of the inheritance cycle... Those who are rich in LP and go out and die could have a new character with murder and 250 range in another 24 hours. The idea of LP has become meaningless because those who have already concieved their fair share of LP never have to worry about dying. They kill, they get killed, they use a % of their origional LP to create a new character. I don't know about you guys, but i don't like my mother or fathers jobs and I'd never want to take part in them. Recieving the skills of your ancestors is rediculous and should no longer be applied. You shouldn't have the option. You should have to start with a clean slate, a new plan of action. This will cause less drama in the forums and ingame, but it will make people think twice before raiding a village or leaving theft scents on a noobs property that just killed their first bear. (Yes this happened to me. I had a bear hide stolen in my first 2 weeks of gameplay and hired a Ranger to kill the bastard.) I haven't had much to say in the forums yet, but Permadeath is one of those things that needs new implimentations. New ways, new words, new paths to take in order to stay out of harms way and keep other mischievious players at bay.

[}(_-Slayerr555-_)[}

P.S. -!SPAM AWAY!-

[novaalpha]

Okay, Nooooow we're talkin'! Permadeath is AMAZING. We just need to get rid of the inheritance cycle... Those who are rich in LP and go out and die could have a new character with murder and 250 range in another 24 hours. The idea of LP has become meaningless because those who have already concieved their fair share of LP never have to worry about dying. They kill, they get killed, they use a % of their origional LP to create a new character. I don't know about you guys, but i don't like my mother or fathers jobs and I'd never want to take part in them. Recieving the skills of your ancestors is rediculous and should no longer be applied. You shouldn't have the option. You should have to start with a clean slate, a new plan of action. This will cause less drama in the forums and ingame, but it will make people think twice before raiding a village or leaving theft scents on a noobs property that just killed their first bear. (Yes this happened to me. I had a bear hide stolen in my first 2 weeks of gameplay and hired a Ranger to kill the bastard.) I haven't had much to say in the forums yet, but Permadeath is one of those things that needs new implimentations. New ways, new words, new paths to take in order to stay out of harms way and keep other mischievious players at bay.

[}(_-Slayerr555-_)[}

P.S. -!SPAM AWAY!-

You are wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start.

[Slayerr555]

try me

[burgingham]

Those who are rich in LP and go out and die could have a new character with murder and 250 range in another 24 hours. The idea of LP has become meaningless because those who have already concieved their fair share of LP never have to worry about dying.

Let's start with this. Now think about what you wrote here again. Please.

[Slayerr555]

Yes, what about it? You get a % of your LP back when you die. If you're one who has been maxed out on the skills you are interested in maxing out, you have nothing else to use LP on so therefor you will have more % LP back if you die, every single time you use a curio. Simple as that. Your % LP returned to your new character by your ancestors goes up every 100k LP you get... Idk what the % is, but I'm sure it's a concievable concept to do as I've stated.