The U.S. Goverment

[jorb]

Will there be an answer to my post in particular? You said it was gonna come later, Jorb. Then I will wait for that with my next post.

Yes, but I'm going to need another sleep session before I handle it. I meant to reply tonight but we got caught up in trying to get the jumping animation for the new crickets working.

[longblacksocks]

As Jorb said in this thread earlier (and if nothing else I will remember that from our discussion to pass on whenever someone asks me) he/I/we are interested in what world, time and environment we live in and strive to understand it as good as possible. Only got this one life to figure it out so I don't see how any of this is to be judged negative if that is how Painhertz meant it.

I don't think he meant it in a negative way - he put a nice smiley face!

[burgingham]

Will there be an answer to my post in particular? You said it was gonna come later, Jorb. Then I will wait for that with my next post.

Yes, but I'm going to need another sleep session before I handle it. I meant to reply tonight but we got caught up in trying to get the jumping animation for the new crickets working.

Just wanted to make sure, no pressure.

I don't think he meant it in a negative way - he put a nice smiley face!

It is Painhertz, he is always grumpy

[Jackard]

give a simple account of western history from Rome to Revolution or even know the names and order of the planets in the solar system,

ouch again :cry:

Out of curiosity, what would be the equivalent of this for Eastern universities? Do they prefer india/china over rome for their ancient civilizations?

[Tonkyhonk]

give a simple account of western history from Rome to Revolution or even know the names and order of the planets in the solar system,

ouch again

Out of curiosity, what would be the equivalent of this for Eastern universities? Do they prefer india/china over rome for their ancient civilizations?

mind you, i can only speak of one in my own country, and im sure it shall be different elsewhere.

not quite sure to call what im going to write here as "the equivalent", since universities do expect all (or most) students to have learned basic western history, from ancient Greece to, lets say, Industrial revolution. however, i hope it is okay to say that it would be considered more important for us to know Chinese history here.

there exists a (parody) song to memorize the Chinese Dynasties in a correct order, from Shang (could be changed to Xia lately) to Qing, and we all are expected (and forced ) to learn them well. not only the names of those dynasties of course, but also some major emperors, wars, events, and historical geography as well.
it is so important to know Chinese history and its timeline because it is also about our own hisotry in a way. our history is very connected that we cannot take them apart. it is also important when we learn our own literature, and our Japanese classes contain some ancient chinese texts partly, such as Four Books and Five Classics/四書五経 (mainly Confucius books including poetry), some other ancient chinese philosophy books such as Laozi, Zhuangzi, Han Feizi, your favorite Sun Tzu, and some ancient history books as well. (no, we dont read them all, we only pick bits and pieces from each and learn general ideas. moreover, learning those doesnt make us speak/write neither ancient nor modern Chinese at all.)

on the other hand, we do not learn much about India or any other asian countries except for Korea. (well, Mongolia too, but mostly when it ruled China, as a part of Chinese history.) Ancient India was very important for our people in ancient days, but it was rather regarded as a heaven or utopia, and it was studied all through chinese/korean eyes with their translations. (back in old days, a very few managed to actually visit ancient India/Nepal for pilgrimage, like your people visit Jerusalem)

one important thing to note here, however, is many japanese students dont learn enough to know the difference even between Confucius and Sun Tzu, even though most recognize (they know they have heard of) all those names.
tbt, i, too, had no idea how different they were when i was a low-teen, only tried to learn whatever needed for exams and wasted time.

[longblacksocks]

I was kind of under the impression (from Korean and Chinese friends and students) that history lessons in Asia are more of a memorisation exercise than any real qustioning or analysis. Is that true for Japan too? Students can reel off a list of dynasties, kings and battle dates, but when it comes to the reasons for events they are either not taught or only taught the general dogmatic view that fits in with the way each state views itself and it's place in history.

I mean that is true in the UK too to an extent... but once you hit 15-16 they start making you to analyse and argue for yourself.

[Tonkyhonk]

I was kind of under the impression (from Korean and Chinese friends and students) that history lessons in Asia are more of a memorisation exercise than any real qustioning or analysis. Is that true for Japan too? Students can reel off a list of dynasties, kings and battle dates, but when it comes to the reasons for events they are either not taught or only taught the general dogmatic view that fits in with the way each state views itself and it's place in history.

I mean that is true in the UK too to an extent... but once you hit 15-16 they start making you to analyse and argue for yourself.

yep, it is a tradition borrowed from China, so-called Imperial examination/科挙 was considered highly as a supreme system for long and we had implemented a similar system back in ancient time and also in Meiji era. we still cannot deny the influence of that system. it was said, at least by Japanese, that you were supposed to memorize basically every line written in all the important books as "common knowledge" in order to pass the exam.

however, it is not meant to be a memorization exercise.(we have math classes for that.) our "pioneers" didnt know any other methods but memorizing for "studying" before the basic idea here is that you cannot even argue or discuss anything decent without obtaining enough "common knowledge" first. and once a person learns all of what had been said by all the important people in history, he (im purposely not putting "or she") should know how/what to debate and give and exchange opinions with others for anything.
also, maybe i should add that we have too much to learn in such a short time of our compulsory years + 3 yrs in high school.

i was indeed awed at my first american history class in the states.
"wtf, students are talking in a history class!? and they dont get yelled at?!?!"
"a teacher is sittng quiet and listening to students in a history class???????????"
remember though, our education has changed a lot, many enthusiastic teachers are trying to bring in "discussions" into classes lately rather than "students sit quietly and concentrate in taking notes (or draw/read manga =P)" now, and my student days are one of the worst relics of our past. in my days, we even sit quietly in "English" classes and hardly uttered a word sometimes.

also, i should probably point out that asian people in general are not very fond of talking in public. even when the smart ones have some good questions, they tend to shut up during a class, and rather go to teachers after class to ask. students opening their mouths is often rather a bad sign, like naughty ones trying to screw class.
(and you can imagine how i was... i was always the loudest anywhere, wherever i went. ha ha.)
enthusiastic teachers and most foreign teachers (assistant english teachers) try to let students talk in class, but hey, it is pretty tough to do in our countries. if the teachers try to force us into talking, they will end up miserable many times unless they have a real good idea to carry out plans. i have witnessed too many times and felt so sorry.
dunno if its our DNA but that is how we are

[_Gunnar]

While this thread looks very interesting, I agree with certain things a lot of people are saying, but...

when I was a kid I believed that the world was a good place, for the sole reason that I was happy. Then I read a little about capitalism and thought that the free market was quite an elegant scientific theory which explained a lot, and I guess originally I thought it was a good thing.
Then I read more, and travelled to many different countries as a teenager, and decided that while it is an elegant theory it is not a good thing, so I became a socialist.
Then I read more, including Ayn Rand and things like that, and didn't know what to think for several years, and I decided that the best way to describe myself was an "left-wing" anarchist.
Now I mistrust all theory, although my thoughts are broadly the same as they were when I labelled myself an anarchist, I have read even more and dislike every single anarchist writer I have read, even they all want power/control over other people in some sense. Actually, the same goes for any general political philosophy, although I am guilty of creating such mental systems much of the time (its inevitable as a thinking being in some sense, perhaps).

I'm not sure it is productive to construct broad theories. I look around the world and see so many problems that are not caused solely by either a monopoly on the use of force by the state or a free market on the use of force, but both...

I think any use of force is bad, and a choice you give someone as to which entity they will be coerced by is really no choice at all. I don't have any general solution, nor am I brave enough to rebel, so I just try to oppose whatever particular injustice I see in any small way that I can.

@Tonkyhonk:

math classes should not be a memorization task either . Just like anything else, you have to memorize a certain amount before you are well informed enough to see the true beauty, similarly to what you are saying about the humanities...
and i think there is a balance, we do not *learn* enough here I think. Most of the stuff I know is random stuff I picked up myself, not in school.

[Tonkyhonk]

@Tonkyhonk:

math classes should not be a memorization task either . Just like anything else, you have to memorize a certain amount before you are well informed enough to see the true beauty, similarly to what you are saying about the humanities...
and i think there is a balance, we do not *learn* enough here I think. Most of the stuff I know is random stuff I picked up myself, not in school.

oops, i didnt mean to mention that to talk about the whole math.
we have this "multiplication table" that all kids at school must memorize at 2nd (sometimes 1st or 3rd) grade, and we do it for for a memorization task for kids. (you know how you remember forever what you memorized as a kid.) i hear that India has got even a much bigger table than ours. no wonder how smart they can get.

as for "learn enough", yes, balance. however, when you have millions of people wanting a certain job that is available for only a few, you could probablyl imagine how "decent enough" can turn into (and how it turned into in china.)

*edit*
aww, sorry, my bad, now i see what you meant by "learn enough" there, you were talking about my line in difference between Confucius and Son Tzu, right? what i meant "enough" there will be hopefully clear to you once you know what those books were about. (Confucius was trying to teach people and governments hoping to recover the lost social orders, while Son Tzu was trying to teach his superiors how wars can succeed or fail, or better yet, how to win wars.)


p.s.
jorb, please dont worry and skip these, post what you planned to reply with, we all are waiting