Seasons

[jorb]

The real problem is how difficult we can reasonably make winter without killing every character who starts during the period. The general problem is that with scaling characters -- you get better the more you play -- comes the need for scaling challenges -- from newb to blaze -- otherwise newbs will die and blaze will get bored. If challenges are to scale -- from newb to blaze -- the challenges must be localized in the game world, or newbs will bump into them when they can't handle them. Dangerous creatures this way, kindergarten that. If the challenges are localized in the game world, the game world must have an up and a down. If the game has an up and a down, there is less sand in the sandbox. Another problem with localization is that one wants to avoid the RoB situation, where the RoB is a blasted wasteland of deforestation, of trial and error, and of early newb mistakes. The reason for the RoB situation is that all spawning is located to one particular point in the world. Perhaps this isn't a problem? Perhaps one could randomly seed the map with dangerous areas. If food is nigh on impossible to get during winter time -- as, it could be argued, it should -- then what about those who can't even fish? The cycle -- Planting during spring, filling up stores during summer and fall, and simply trying to survive during the winter while engaging in simple crafts -- would be great fun for an established player who knows the game, but all players aren't like that. Some don't know the game, and how do I handle those?

I could give them a little world of their own to play with -- with quests and building and whatnot -- before letting them out into the real world. Fine, but then survival in the real world still cannot be dependent on skill levels, as they still wouldn't have too many of those. As it stands, though, it should perhaps be said that survival isn't really dependent on high skill levels. The only thing that depends on skill levels is quality of the stuff you make. You can still make it at more or less any level. I think this is as it should be. There are the learning skills, though. Also, it is unreasonable that newbs should have to go through more or less the entire game content, and then take an exam on the subject, before being allowed to play with others. Learning from others ingame has its charm.

Animals scaling isn't entirely convincing. It leads, as bright minds have pointed out, to a situation where animals follow the normal MMO pattern of being mobs that are to be aggroed. While this has its charm, I quite like killing animals in H&H, it isn't entirely realistic. Perhaps this could be avoided if one changed the model for how characters scale. If a bear is always 50 units of danger, and a newb hearthling is 10, then Blaze (An insanely high level player with the best gear there is to have) could perhaps be 40-50-60 (Assume linear relation between the units)? That is certainly more realistic. Even a trained spec ops navy seal KGB/SAS/Mossad ninja will -- more or less -- get beaten up if there are three or four determined guys attacking him at once in a situation where he can't run. The model would then be that five newb hearthlings who gang up on a bear would have a chance of taking it out, but only a high level player has any real chance of doing it himself. Under a representation like that, where levling basically comes with a steep, steep amount of diminishing returns -- you would probably always consider the bear somewhat of a challenge, and they do not have to scale per se -- though they could still have a bit of natural variation. This also leaves room for lindworms and trolls and leshys and god knows what else. One obvious risk here is that players do not feel that they get rewarded for their efforts. It could, potentially, make character development into a long boring grind. Another problem is that it might make throwaway newb assasins into a problem. People could exploit the relatively slow pace of development. That could perhaps be solved by giving a defender a massive advantage in all forms of pvp. Assuming this relation animals should probably be less frequent by an order of magnitude. A problem with that is that animals are one of the few things that make the world feel alive. Perhaps some simple things, animated patches of grass blowing in the wind, could improve on that.

Perhaps one could have a special flag on newbs, a baby blue eyes effect, which makes animals not attack them. The flag could be removed once newbs learn some critical fighting skill or other. If one had something like that, one could spawn newbs pretty much anywhere in the wilderness. There'd still be the problem of linking up people who want to play with each other, but that could probably be solved through some sort of invite system.

So, what about winter? Assuming a model like that solves the above mentioned issues, could it be dangerous? Maybe. If the seasons gently roll across the map from one end to the other, then winter could be like a murdering polar bear of pain that kills, maims and destroys hearthlings, crops, trees and buildings. Number one this could help clean out abandoned settlements, and keep the map fresh. Number two, you would only really have to play through it if you had some important value or other to protect in the area in question. Number three, newbs could always be spawned in the spring area, giving them a couple of IRL weeks or perhaps even months to learn the ropes and get set up before winter hits them. Number four, if they still aren't up for it they could always move with the season, as humans obviously have done for large parts of their history.

I guess the model would be that if an object gets covered in snow, it will decay more or less in an instant if the decay timer hits it. You would perhaps not have to repair stuff per se, but you would have to clear snow off of it. Also, you'd have to wear warm clothes or die instantly.

Maybe that could work...

[sikgamer]

It could work if said newbies are given a proper chance to prepare for winter, and actually know that this game has seasons and winter is a tough time to be in. Therefore there should be a short tutorial explaining the ropes of the game and giving you some things to fight, then asking where you wish to spawn and what season it currently is there (I.e. 4 options, RoB (spring), and 3 other rings spread across the map according to seasons). This of course is assuming you'd stick to the rotating "summer in one hemisphere, winter the other" system.
We already have an instanced newbie 'zone', so why not improve it by adding doors leading to different instanced tutorial zones?

Also, the problem with the 'Moving with the seasons' idea is that the map isn't spherical. You'd end up moving, then hitting the edge of the map, then being caught up by winter.

[kaka]

From the about page:

Players start the game surrounded by a vast and somewhat unforgiving wilderness

This has bothered me a long time. The only unforgiving thing in this
world is the waters. Ever since I read the game concept I've had this
picture of survival being one of the main aspects; in particular, the
gathering of food and sheltering from harsh weather. Even though my
hp bar is nearly always red, I've never had to think about eating for
survival.

When animals finally start killing and eating hearthlings (oh, the
joy), that will add some difficulty, but as it stands, even the
newbiest of newbs doesn't have any trouble surviving.

To summarize: I'm all for anything that makes surviving more
difficult, and seasons will probably do just that, plus it will add
more variation to the game.

[niltrias]

Lottsa stuff

How about starting the newbs in a more temperate climate zone, but the area has no q higher than 10? In order to reach the hiq areas, you have to brave the bears and boars, progressively nastier winters and summers, etc. Make distance from RoB increase risk in all sorts of ways, so that newbies can get used to it before moving on.

I realize that this leads to the newbie barrens we faced in the first map, and that we need to find a way out of that as well. I dont think it is a bad idea, I think it is an idea that needs more work.

[Potjeh]

Yep, newb area should be Mediterranean equivalent, and there should be a northern Scandinavia equivalent for the more experienced players.

[Laremere]

Early game is boring, why not make it interesting. Making it difficult to survive early game would make the game more interesting. The only thing is that you can't make it unfair. Possibly early game characters would have to depend greatly on other players, providing whatever noob services they can provide in exchange for food from the more experienced player's stores.


Besides, if a descent sized settlement ran out of food for the winter, they could always pillage other settlements to get it, which would certainly make the game more interesting.

[Delamore]

Early game is boring, why not make it interesting. Making it difficult to survive early game would make the game more interesting. The only thing is that you can't make it unfair. Possibly early game characters would have to depend greatly on other players, providing whatever noob services they can provide in exchange for food from the more experienced player's stores.

How does this function when the game has just started? Everyones character would be early game and three would be none selling the higher end stuff.

[Laremere]

Well, if the new world starts in spring, weather wouldn't be a problem. Animals might be, but that's why you throw up pole fences and group together.

[Caradon]

I believe someone suggested Grain silos of some sort earlier.

perhaps a granary? Buildable with stone and straw, halves food decay?

And then we could salt our meats.

Just dont salt your meat when it chafes, that shit stings.

[sikgamer]

Early game is boring, why not make it interesting. Making it difficult to survive early game would make the game more interesting. The only thing is that you can't make it unfair. Possibly early game characters would have to depend greatly on other players, providing whatever noob services they can provide in exchange for food from the more experienced player's stores.


Besides, if a descent sized settlement ran out of food for the winter, they could always pillage other settlements to get it, which would certainly make the game more interesting.

There's making a game interestingly difficult, then there's making it so difficult a newbie plays the game, dies an hour later, doesn't understand any of the game mechanics, then gives up deeming the game worthless.