Things you feel we need before map reset

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Re: Things you feel we need before map reset

Postby jorb » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:29 pm

Extended Treatise on That Which Really Should Be Bloody Obvious to Anyone Above A Grade School Level of Mental Development

There exists a popular misconception that actions in the H&H game world can be neatly classified as being either "offensive" -- in the sense of doing harm to other players -- or "peaceful" -- in the sense of not doing harm to other players. On the basis of this misconception some people have suggested that players who exclusively perform actions pertaining to the latter category should be kept safe from actions sorting under the former. While this conclusion -- that peaceful players should not be subject to PvP -- does indeed follows from the premises -- and in this sense isn't a logical fallacy per se -- it nevertheless remains the case that one of the premises necessary to arrive at this conclusion is deeply and fundamentally flawed. Namely, as pointed out above, the false belief that there exists a clear and formalized divide between offensive and peaceful actions, so formalized and neat, in fact, that it can be reduced to computer code and determined mechanically. As an afterthought, the careful scribe is want to ask himself: Do these suggesters -- in their postings so full of self-righteous ire -- also propose do replace our real life court systems with punch-cards and calculators?

The H&H game world attempts -- to no small an extent -- to simulate events and processes of the real world in a digitalized form. In so doing, it would be an object of abject failure if, along with the beauties and wonders of real life, not also some of the difficulties associated with it were to be emulated. Some difficulties are, indeed, impossible to abstract away, simply because they follow from the very essence of that which we, admittedly, are trying to simulate. One such difficulty is crime.

Players in the H&H game world share the same "physical" space, and, also, the same theoretical potentials for affecting it. Some actions performed in order to affect the game world are, however, mutually exclusive with other such actions. For example: If I claim a piece of land, you can not also claim it. If I wish to see a tile plowed, it can not also, at the same time, per your wish, be planted with grass. Players in H&H have certain means at their disposal to deny other players the execution of certain actions. Such means include walls, claims, physical occupation, consuming, destruction, etc, but these actions in fact only compound to make the point infinitely more true: The land which I have claimed, you cannot claim. The basket that I am carrying, you can not carry. The apple that I have eaten, you can not eat.

To further develop on this point, let us make it painfully clear that this relation is so integrated in the very essence of H&H that it is impossible to even play the game without performing an action which is mutually exclusive, at least in time and place, with another action. If you are standing on the tile which I wish to plow, I cannot plow it. This means that the nub who has just created his first character and logged in, by the mere act of existing, is denying other players certain courses of action -- the most obvious one being interaction with that particular tile, but, as said nub starts to play, more and more actions will be denied other players by his act of simply playing. There is no shame in this, the number of potential actions is so great so as to approach the infinite, but, nevertheless: by acting in the H&H game world you are denying other players options that they would have had, had you not been playing the game.

When one adopts and understands this perspective, it becomes clear as sparkling morning dew on a well mowed lawn that there does not exist a clear divide between offensive and peaceful actions. Every action you do denies another player some potential action. In speaking with von Clausewitz, we can observe that combat, thus, is only the continuation of action denying by other means. If you stand on the tile I wish to plow, I can hurt you to make you go away. If, on the other hand, I can't attack you, then you have the means to permanently and irrevocably deny me particular courses of action for as long as you and your whims see fit. And, in this sense, every potential action is always offensive or, every potential action is always peaceful or the distinction is meaningless, whichever one you prefer.

As a child I often enjoyed and participated in a fun little game called "The Air is Free". Perhaps it was due to some particular gift in my childhood self, but I remember observing already at that young age that there was something very fishy about the often repeated commandment of the grown-ups that I must never hit another child. The game -- which is more an act of playful fucktardieness than an actual game -- consists of doing every annoying thing in your power without actually touching the other child. You can invade his personal space, you can wave your hands back and forth around his face, but you aren't actually touching him, and, since the air is free, you can always maintain that you did nothing wrong. Only a very stupid child buys this, of course. A smart child hits you in the face, as he should, and, indeed, that is how the game usually ends.

I now ask you to conjure up the vilest demons of your most cruel, childish imaginations. If the air was, indeed, free. What is the worst you could do?

New players, I would also like to add, should be, and are, particularly easy to target. The amount of investment needed to create one is so small that affording them any means of special security is inviting for them to be used as grief-machines and if they die, not much has been lost. Imagine, if you will, what you could do if new players were untouchable for the first 12 hours of game time. Jeez-louise, that would not be a pretty sight.

And, in closing, let me emphatically restate:

Jackard wrote:Image


Enjoy.
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Re: Things you feel we need before map reset

Postby HoldYourFire » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:39 pm

Great post! :D Also I like your new sig.

Why don't the devs want to move to a more Ultima-Online-style skill system? By this I mean that there is a cap on skill, beyond which you cannot increase your chances of hitting the enemy, and a cap on strength beyond which you cannot increase your damage from any particular weapon (UO didn't have a cap on strength as such, but you see where I'm coming from). This would prevent old players just grinding their way to godlike power. Equipment would still have a huge impact, if not even more so than now, so the progression would still be there, it would just require better teamwork. Skills could even decay as in UO, so that people who wanted to stay at the cap would have to train constantly, thus preventing them from spending time on other pursuits. It seems like this would improve the "realism" drastically, and have more of an impact on PvP than tinkering with walls (which is not to say that you couldn't do both)!
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Re: Things you feel we need before map reset

Postby Kleinke » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:44 pm

Also this game basically aims for as much of a simulation of life back then as you can possibly get with 2d graphics, This is a virtual world, if some crazy viking wants to come pillage your village whos to say he cant? It needs to stay OPEN PVP LIKE HAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE.
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Re: Things you feel we need before map reset

Postby Winterbrass » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:56 pm

The temptation to write 'cool story bro' and just leave it at that is definitely there, but I'll attempt to make this post somewhat constructive.

No form of defense can protect someone logged in to the game from anyone else - not even the most effective walls. The only 100% effective defense is not playing at all. While this may be what you are intending, it does tend to prevent Mooners from enjoying themselves once their settlements have come to the attention of people in their regions who are assholes. The problem with the game is that the best (and only) defense is a good offense, except that you leave scents and therefore are fucked. The Mooners just want a way to protect themselves from the predations of pricks without becoming subservient to one/many.

The problem comes from the fact that it is easier to destroy than to create, and to steal than to protect.

Palisades and brick walls shouldn't be destructible with any weapons skill at all. Only tools, and with the Destroy command. One of the non-violent criminal skills, however, should give the ability to pick gate doors.

Well, and locks. For chests. And cupboards. And cabins. And being able to chain things in place would be nice. And passive claim protections like bear traps for use against other players. And various other sorts of traps for things like chests and whatnot, to make a thief's life hell.

Shit that would make the Mooners feel more secure, regardless of whether or not it actually makes them so.

Upgrading the combat system is all well and good, but considering that combat is currently part of the problem that Mooners experience... Well, perhaps getting some actual defense into place would be nice, too.
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Re: Things you feel we need before map reset

Postby warrri » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:59 pm

jorb wrote:Extended Treatise on That Which Really Should Be Bloody Obvious to Anyone Above A Grade School Level of Mental Development
To further develop on this point, let us make it painfully clear that this relation is so integrated in the very essence of H&H that it is impossible to even play the game without performing an action which is mutually exclusive, at least in time and place, with another action. If you are standing on the tile which I wish to plow, I cannot plow it. This means that the nub who has just created his first character and logged in, by the mere act of existing, is denying other players certain courses of action -- the most obvious one being interaction with that particular tile, but, as said nub starts to play, more and more actions will be denied other players by his act of simply playing. There is no shame in this, the number of potential actions is so great so as to approach the infinite, but, nevertheless: by acting in the H&H game world you are denying other players options that they would have had, had you not been playing the game.


On that note i might add, that every new spawned player drastically reduces my chance to find an X bear, so instead of grinding bears i start grinding players to clear the world from civilisation so i can finally grind bears again.
The world I love The tears I drop To be part of The wave can't stop
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Re: Things you feel we need before map reset

Postby warrri » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:01 pm

Winterbrass wrote:
Palisades and brick walls shouldn't be destructible with any weapons skill at all. Only tools, and with the Destroy command. One of the non-violent criminal skills, however, should give the ability to pick gate doors.

You just won the Special Olympics, admit it!
The world I love The tears I drop To be part of The wave can't stop
Ever wonder if it's all for you
The world I love The trains I hop To be part of The wave can't stop
Come and tell me when it's time to
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Re: Things you feel we need before map reset

Postby jorb » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:05 pm

Winterbrass wrote:The problem comes from the fact that it is easier to destroy than to create, and to steal than to protect.


I have written another wall of text echoing that precise sentiment. That wasn't what we were discussing here, though.

EDIT: My other wall of text, for reference: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4158&p=46021#p46021
"The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials we must be living in a different world."

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Re: Things you feel we need before map reset

Postby jorb » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:15 pm

warrri wrote:On that note i might add, that every new spawned player drastically reduces my chance to find an X bear, so instead of grinding bears i start grinding players to clear the world from civilisation so i can finally grind bears again.


You always were one to think in terms of solutions.
"The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials we must be living in a different world."

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Re: Things you feel we need before map reset

Postby Avu » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:20 pm

The other wall of text was posted a month and half ago and there's still no improvement on the field. You actually added more material to grief in the form of domestic animals that take from months to years to improve to a good enough level to affect the crafting graph while taking seconds to kill by someone seeking to buff his ancestor and do some griefing in the process.
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Re: Things you feel we need before map reset

Postby Winterbrass » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:21 pm

jorb wrote:
Winterbrass wrote:The problem comes from the fact that it is easier to destroy than to create, and to steal than to protect.


I have written another wall of text echoing that precise sentiment. That wasn't what we were discussing here, though.

EDIT: My other wall of text, for reference: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4158&p=46021#p46021

Agreed with your other wall of text, more or less. I do have to argue, however, that once passive claim protections (in the form of 'bite-back' and locks) go into the game, there will be far less legitimate reason for Mooners to complain. Whether one thinks that there actually currently is legitimate reason to complain is definitely dependent on one's personal opinions on the current system, it seems.
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